TheTrustedMechanic

Why do you undervalue your services lke this? I was just readng another forun about the undervaluing of our services and not getting paid what we're worth and then I read this where you say you're charging barely over list price. Adaptve one pads typcally run $50-70 as set. Labor guides list the average pad replacement at 1 hour and machining rotors at .2-.4 each. So for a complete, properly performed brake job where you clean everything thoroughly, and lubricate whaere appropriate how long does it take you? For your price point either you don't have sufficient parts margin, aren't charging for the work performed or maybe just aren't doing the complete job. OR maybe you aren't flaggin your techs enough time. A friend of mine says he can do a pad slap and turn two rotors in about 45 minutes. Well there is no way on God's green earth that he is doing a complete job in that time. We should do the best job we can possibly do, especially with the most important system on the car. We should charge approprately and get paid for a job well done. I'd really like to hear how you make that price point with Adaptive One pads. I checked my cost on the ADO pads for 9 different cars, four of which I owned or currently own, front and rear pads. The lowest cost was $45 and the highest was $79.00 with an average of $58-62. So I still ask, how are you maintaining proper margins and meeting your price point? If I could do the same, I'd be busy with brake jobs all day, every day. But I refuse to give away my talents and I refuse to cut corners on brake jobs. There is no more inportant system on a vehicle than the brakes. Because after all there is no greater leap of faith than when you step on that brake pedal. And a vehicle can't hurt anyone if it won't go, but it sure will if it won't WHOA! I owe my family more than cutting corners on brakes. With all due respect and reverence I submit this to you.

What is your preferred brand of automotive brake pads and why? NAPA Adaptive One Who is the supplier of that brake pad to you? NAPA Auto Parts What is the warranty on those pads? Limited Lifetime - NOT against wear out but the local store will replace them "one time" Who manufactures those brake pads? Starts with an A, sorry I don't remember at this time. What grade are those brake pads, low end, mid, high end? VERY high-end Are they ceramic, semi-metallic, organic, or blend? Hybrid ceramic - different compositions for the inboard and outboard pads to reflect the different temperatures each pad experiences. NAPA Adaptive One brake pads are an ultra-premium brake pad with a premium price so they are hard to sell. In most cases I use Wagner ThermoQuiet brake pads. I always encourage the Adaptive One and that is all I use on my personal vehicles but I like and trust the ThermoQuiets. When properly installed as part of a properly serviced brake job I've never had a noise or performance complaint with either brand of brake pads.

I too prefer the Goodyear Gatorback belt. But I use primarily NAPA(Premium) Belts made by Gates. I use them because my servicing store does such a good job of standing behind me, even if NAPA or the manufacturer won't stand behind them. I don't use the Gatorback very much because the only local supplier is AutoZone and I HATE buying AZ garbage. Not to mention their service sucks unless they are your main supplier and you do $$,$$$.$$ business with them. If you don't you pay the same price as the public. That and so many more arguments about their "free" practices that sell parts that won't fix the light to start with. The warranty on the Gates belts is about useless if you really read it. Many years ago I used a Gates timing belt on my wife's Hyundai. Less than 3K after it was installed it sheared teeth. Not broke, not split, not installed improperly (I used factory tools and repair manual since I worked at the dealer at the time, don't ask why I didn't use a Hyundai belt, I don't remember. Could be that it was a Gates too, I don't remember). The belt sheared teeth and you know the rest of the story, many broken valves. A broken casting around a valve guide and a broken valve embedded in a piston. Long story short, my cost of $850.00 later (1994 $$'s) the car was fixed. Gates contribution to the cause, $0.00. "we'll give you a new belt, IF we deem it was at fault, but we're not responsible for any other damages. I declined. I asked them, your first belt failed and you won't stand behind it, why would I want to risk it on another belt? So I installed a Goodyear belt, the car was sold and traveled from Michigan to Texas and back 3 times over the next 100K miles with the same timing belt. So to this day I cringe even when it's just a serpentine belt. But when every parts store in town carries Gates except AutoZone what do you do? I guess I rely on my insurance and my servicing store to back me up in the event of a failure. And the use of an OE belt won't guarantee you aren't getting Gates either. When I was a forklift mechanic we were doing a head gasket on a Linde Baker IC truck and the factory belt came through. I don't remember the engine manufacturer but the factory belt was a Gates belt in the engine manufacturer's package inside the Linde package. So I was screwed all the way around.

Joe, I see things very differently. I see the previous admin as very power hungry. Constitutionally abusive in fact. But none of the "free thinkers" were around. They were too busy guzzling the swill of the right wing media and spin-doctors. As I, a true independent, free thinking American, see it we have the same garbage, the same disfunctional government with the same divisions. It's just a different party "in power." Now don't think you have to agree with me to be a true independent, free thinking American, I was just clarifying my qualifications. If the Dems weren't so scared of the Reallydumblicans and their filibuster threats then we might actually have a point to complain that the "liberals" were in power. The fact that so little has gotten accomplished is proof that little has changed in Washington. I'm sorry Abe, but the "government of the people, by the people, for the people," perished long ago. The neo-cons successfully converted it to a government of the rich, by the powerful, for the politically well connected. And the Supreme Court's ignorance in ruling that fictional soulless entities (corporations, union, etc.) with no conscience and no mortal ramifications have full right to spend limitlessly just further emphasizes that truth. And just for those who wish to deride me or speculate, yes I lean just left of center. But remember to be progressive means you must move forward, expand, grow. But you must do it wisely. As it is in business, if you aren't growing, you are dying.

Dewayne, I took the stance I did because of the "Poor me, I'm the victim," mentality of the OP when he wrote, "but my business has become to big for one of my neighbors and someone called the county on me." Clearly he had not followed the rules and did not abide by the law as you have done. You stated you have contacted the county, the neighbors, filed the proper paperwork, registered as a repair facility, have insurance, etc. Your only difference as you stated is that your facility cost is reduced, but then too is your capacity. So if you don't want to play by the rules (operating a business in an approved location) and someone calls you on them (files a complaint with the appropriate governing body) then you have no one to blame but yourself. But the underlying point of my missive was still valid. When he grows and evolves into a legitimate shop he will evolve into something some of his previous "customers" will not want and he won't retain them so don't count on them. So even though I was abrasive I was still providing him advice to be cautious, and offering the benefit of my experience. Yes I too did the shadetree deal. But I too saw the error of my ways and went legit. I filed with the state even as a shadetree so I could legally charge for my services. I even had a sales tax license so I could mark up my parts too. Then after a series of poor dealership jobs taken by necessity I decided to open my own shop. And we can all agree, if we really were honest and took a long hard look, we all have a certain contempt for those shadetree, Backyard Bob, Craigslist grease monkeys. Many of us started there, but we all went legit. Just because we started there does not mean that it was right or just. But on the other hand, many of those (time) consumers that BYB serves aren't good customers for us anyway. Too much time involved for too little money, so in a small way they do help up by taking away many of the bottom feeders. But is still does not make it right.

I also read that article and wasn't impressed. I drive 25 miles one way to work with 17 being pure highway so I change my oil between 3-5000. My stock oil is a synthetic blend so my customers are able to go a little longer if they desire. I have one customer who refuses to follow the owner's manual's 7500. He does all the periodic maintenance and gets his oil changed every 5000. He has a Caravan with a 3.0L that he's owned since new and it's pushing 190K now, and still going strong. Says a lot about proper maintenance. But try to get people to pay for something they see no advantage from. I think that is one of the primary driving forces behind the extended oil change intervals. That and the manufacturer's desire to sell more cars by conning the customer into what the rest of us know is neglect. I was amused when I was checking the maintenance schedule on a customer's Honda Element. Honda calls for oil changes every 10,000 miles but recommends the filter be changed every other oil change. That's right new oil every 10,000 but a new filter every 20,000. On a filter that would easily fit in a pop can. I told my customer I would not change the oil without changing the filter too, he agreed. But the manufacturer's claim their extended intervals is due to vastly superior oils. And that's why we now have GM Dexos, and a myriad of other specifications. It's just a numbers game. By GM having their spec, the eurotrash having their spec. and API, ACEA and others having their own specs. an oil manufacturer could spend billions just to test and certify their oils to the various specifications. Does that mean the $18.95 oil change is dead? No way, there are still hacks out there that will do it and customers that are too ignorant, and not by their own fault, that will buy into it. It simply is another pitfall for the motoring public and the repair shops that don't keep up on the standards. And another revenue stream for the manufacturers, both in the certification process and in selling more cars because their junk was damaged by "inferior" oils. What happened to genuine concern for your customers? Oh, yeah it was displaced by greed and demand for outsized profits and CEO bonuses.

The formulas you have gotten so far are going to be a big help. But through all of the congratulatory fluff I noticed no one mentioned the ugly side of all this. What was your labor rate? What will it have to be with the new overhead? How many customers will you lose to Backyard Bob because you are too high? You may not want to believe it but you will lose some when your rates go up, if they have to move too much. I know this first hand. I was a mobile guy, I did side jobs when I had a day job. I had low overhead and low rates. I then went legit, like you are now. A very good friend and good source of leads dropped away because I was too expensive. Of the solid base I had built up and naively was relying on, I kept less than a quarter because of the mandatory higher prices. So if you aren't doning any, or much marketing now, you better figure in some serious coin to get some started, at least for the first year you are legit. And I say you weren't legit because if you were working out of your home garage, in violation of zoning laws, you were no better than the Craigslisters and shadetree grease monkeys. You skirted the law and undercut the competition by not truly being competitive. Think about it, the guy three blocks over working out of his garage or the back of his Astro van will be able to cut your throat on overhead and undercut your labor rates, because he isn't playing on the same level or by the same rules (laws). I can't say I'd be happy if my neighbor started an industrial operation (that's exactly what car repair is) next to my home either. But good luck in your new venture and I hope you can successfully make the transition.

First off, this is a VERY touchy topic due to anti-trust laws. But I will put in my $.02. Your labor rate and parts mark-up must be competitive to your market, not mine or other members, your market. With that said, I agree about maybe moving your labor up, but you will have to survey your competition. I don't know about the mark up on tires since I do not sell tires. You say you are busy, how busy? What is your efficiency rate? That means how many hours are you selling for the number of hours you are open? Here's where it gets tricky, if you are open 9 hours a day but only average 6 hours of available work, you will never reach 80-90% efficiency that most consider a highly efficient shop. But if you are scheduling only 6 hours because that is all you can finish in a day then you are losing money due to inefficiencies. These can be your parts ordering method, your technicians are simply too slow and need an incentive or replacement, or maybe your shop layout? Believe it or not I talked to one shop owner who, by simply putting up two additional identically stocked supply cabinets (you know brake clean, penetrating oil, silicone spray. etc.) and taking the doors off the cabinets he gained 2% efficiency. Doesn't seem like much, but some management gurus will tell you just a 5% shift in efficiency will yield thousands in additional profit. Think about it, you are paying the bills and making a living. Assuming you are running 100K (parts & labor, just an example) per tech, that 2% translates into an additional $4000.00 per year, just for two more cabinets and taking the doors off. Easy money. Now some shops are just not set up to meet maximum technician efficiency. Assuming yours is and you are busy every minute of every day, are you booked out a week or two in advance? If so your prices are too low. I suspect being a two tech, two bay shop that you are not highly efficient. You need at least one more bay for two techs. Think about, you've got a brake inspection done and waiting for the office manager to finish the quote and sell the job, what does that tech do? Put tires back on and move on only to rack it back up and pull the tires to do the job later, or wait for approval? Or how about the u-joint job where your tech has pulled the driveshaft only to find out there are four different u-joints available and you got the wrong one and have to wait 1/2 hour for the parts delivery of the right one? Wasted time and highly inefficient. He should be able to move on and utilize a second hoist for the next car, unless you always have flat bay work four seasons. And how are you selling brake specials for $110.00? Again here, please be careful of anti-trust laws if you reply. But a decent set of pads will run you half of that. If you compete on price guess what you will get? Price shoppers and you will never make any money on them. All they want is cheap. I am currently trying to break that trend at my shop. I still offer specials and coupons, but I am trying to move them upscale to the point where I will make money and they have broad appeal, not just a cheap price. But back to the brakes, if you are just slapping in another set of pads and scratching the rotors sure 45 minutes may be enough. I checked book time on every brake job my first year and do you know what I found? Some really scalped you on pad replacement at .6-.7 but most were 1.0 plus .2-.3 each for machining the rotors. So that is an average of 1.5 hours, at your labor rate you are only charging 12.49 for pads and brake clean, no wonder you aren't making money. And what about the brake complaints from a poorly done job? Again, survey your competition, not from your shop phone, and get a feel for their pricing. You will never be able to compete on price because someone will always be advertising a cheaper deal to get them in the door only to upsell the devil out of them. Sure you will feel like you're losing a lot of work, but if you aren't making any money on it, what's the point? You will provide your customer clients much better value if you use a quality part and do a thorough job than if you do it cheap. Or maybe that's the reputation you want. And the last item I can quickly think of is do you need all of this staff? If your efficiency is not there then maybe you need to reevaluate your staffing needs. For two bays you really need top efficiency to support that many paychecks. I suspect you are simply overstaffed for the shop you have. Moving a business sucks but unless there is additional space available to you, I'd be looking at a bigger shop, nearby. That extra bay probably won't cost you as much per year as the lost efficiency of your techs standing around. It won't take an extra 15 minutes a day of productivity per tech to make you able to afford $500 a month higher rent. If you have mortgage then maybe look into adding a bay. Of course you will have to evaluate your specific situation but I'll bet having that extra bay will increase your per tech productivity greatly. And yes this was easier to write than it is to implement, but you asked for advice. And if you want, I have a system for more efficient communications between the techs and the front office. Make it as non-verbal as possible. It really works and saves time. Contact me for more details.

I use Alldata Manage. I looked into Mitchell Manager but it's too bad the repair information sucks. The first three cars I looked up info for, or rather tried to, Mitchell OnDemand was worthless. The first one had no info, Alldata did albeit limited. The second one I couldn't find the info at all in Mitchell but Alldata had good info. The last one, I gave up after that, was a 1988 Ford Ranger. I was looking for tune-up specs. firing order, #1 cylinder, spark plug gap etc. Even with the pathetic Google search I spent 35 minutes finding the info. AllData was simple, Powertrain Management / Ignitnion System / Firing Order - Spark Plugs / Specifications. All pretty intuitive. As for the shop management software AllData Manage is all I've used. When I opened my shop 5 years ago I knew I wanted my service records on computer and AllData was the way to go according to the feedback on the shop management forum of another industry site. I attended a few management trainign classes and the instructor's shop used Mitchell and that's why I looked into it after seeing all the reports and information you could get out of it that I couldn't get from Manage. I also looked into R.O. Writer, never in a million years. At 15 grand it is way over priced for what I was shown. Sure it can pay for itself with all the little extra charges it heaps on your customers. A nickel here, 94 cents there and pretty soon you're talking big money. Just the way he showed it seemed very unethical to me. Cheating actually. But as for AllData Manage, I think it is a very good program as far as it goes. I would like the ability to import part numbers and prices from my online ordering through NAPA and a local independent jobber. Supposedly that's coming with a future update but right now all you can do is Autozone junk. I looked into GarageOperator and was interested but the disc I got didn't work for some reason, maybe because I installed 6 months later? Reasonably priced. You own it, not subscribe to it like Mitchell and AllData. Maybe I'll contact Chip agian and get a current disc and play with it. Does anyone else use GarageOperator? How does it work for you?

The few times I checked their "Estimates" I was near the top of their independent shop range but I am one of the lowest $$ shops in town on labor. I also suspect they, or an imitator are behind the price shopper phone calls and emails I've been getting lately. Cell-phones from out of area blocks of numbers, anonymous email addresses, and way too knowledgeable about what their car needs and it HASN'T been to another shop.

Full disclosure here, I am a NAPA AutoCare Center affilliate shop so I use NAPA parts predominantly but I have learned what parts I wish to source elsewhere too. As for quality, like most have said, quality has come up a little at the DIY stores and has fallen across the board, even with OE, with so much made in China. But I have online access to NAPA ProLink, a local independent parts store and Autozone.com (It's true the commercial price is the OTC/DIY price) and I find AZ is almost always more than my cost at the other two. Radiators especially, my cost from AZ is almost list or more than at NAPA sometimes. Only time and experience will tell you where you are comfortable getting parts from. Most customers I believe will have less respect for you if you are using AZ or AAP parts than if you use more traditional "professional" parts. When I first opened I used Advanced for a few jobs because I knew the manager there. One car, the "Lifetime" alternator went out 28 days after installation. I got the part replaced right away, I had to wait three months for the labor credit. Do you know how much it was? $20.00, no diag tiime, no consideration for the 1.2 hrs book time, just $20.00 because they pay $25.00 an hour and use their book. Another car I put pads & rotors front and rear and rear calipers on it. A couple months later she complains of a squeal that I traced down to a large metallic chunk in one pad that had deeply scored the rotor. I spend a lot of time cleaning my brake parts and applying grease where appropriate so I don't get noise. I went back through this car and even applied the sticky Disc Brake Quiet to no avail. They replaced the pads and one rotor and finally paid me $25.00 for pad replacement only. Then this same car came back six months later with a grinding in the rear. One pad had delaminated and the lining fell out. Remember these were new calipers. When I called to inquire if the pads would be honored for warranty since one was missing the lining and the remaining three had 90% or better left. I was told "No there must be a defect with other brake parts." NEVER will I buy from Advanced again. Like DwayneP wrote, once you get an account set up your prices at the more professional stores will drop. And with volume they will drop further. Keep on top of your stores though. NAPA, not the local store will come in and "reset" my pricing because I have lower volume since I'm a one man show. The store usually catches it but I have to ask from time to time. Another reason not to buy from the DIY shops is this, Do you plan to charge for computer diagnostics? AZ & AAP do free "code scans" and essentially tell (maybe not literally but by their actions) that yours and my skill, knowledge and $1000's of test equipment is worthless. Because they can scan that Ford and pull an EGR Flow Out of Range code and sell the customer an EGR valve, and only charge them for the part! Sure, you and I know it won't fix it, but the customer now thinks that your time and equipment isn't worth the doggy-doo they stepped in this morning. Or how 'bout the customer with the hard start, black exhaust, and Fuel System Too Rich codes that needs an oxygen sensor? Sure we know it's getting fuel that the computer can't compensate for, but it needs and oxygen sensor because the experts, I mean, " the guy at AZ told me so." We could all go on and on about all the misdiagnosed cars from the DIY stores selling parts but you get the point. Support those who will support you. Good luck and be prepared for your shop to own you for a few years.

I am a one man shop. If I don't work, I don't get paid. But I agree with you. This August I will be taking my first vacation in 17 years. I am confident with my regular customers that they will wait for me to return exept in emergency cases.

Did you read something different than I did? The linked article simply stated the customer wanted to return tires bought earlier in the day. How is that enough info for you to say you felt like this guy? Mad, mad enough to attack someone?

Not to be harsh, but read your thread title, Labor GUIDES. They are just that, no one anywhere tells you you must charge only that amount of time. You can adjust the time you charge as you see fit. If you adjust up and become uncompetitive you will cease to exist. If you stick to a time you know is too low often enough, you will cease to exist. I have and use Real Time Labor Guide and will often compare times. Depending on the situation, how busy I am and who the customer is, I will mark up to the higher time. I also have the benefit/curse of being a one man show so I write the RO's and do the work so I am keenly aware of how long it should take. Live by the book, DIE BY THE BOOK.

What kinds of equipment? We can't develop interest if we don't know what you have for sale.