ADealerTech

Hey Joe thanks for the response. I should have clarified I am looking into the various Tech Net like services each offer to find the most shop friendly one since they all require you be in either or and use them as your first call with a specific volume requirement per month to wave additional service fees.

Hey Everyone! I have recently (about two years ago) gone into business for myself (no longer a dealer tech) and have actually not had to file any labor claims until this past month and it was quite a bit of a hassle. I was wondering what your experience has been with what auto parts store has been the most user friendly and reasonable reimbursement process? The places I have access to are: Advance Auto AutoZone O'Reilly Auto Napa Action Auto Parts Federated WorldPac I don't want to say which of those I am frustrated with after this go round, because I am more interested in hearing your experiences rather than any defenses of a preferred brand. I am told that Advance and Napa supposedly offer full labor rate reimbursement, but I am not sure I believe this, there must be a catch. I don't expect a full labor rate reimbursement, I understand they are paying us for the costs of replacing the part and not to profit a second time, but I also believe it needs to be a fair valuation. Thanks for any feedback!

I'd like to offer you some inside perspective, because I honestly can see that you guys sort of have the blinders on when it comes to dealership service shops today and the techs employed. 1. On pricing, for a good number of things we match your prices or beat them, and we don't do it at a loss most times. The industry has become expensive for all of us involved, independent and dealership. The difference is the independent shops are more or less having to move their prices north to keep up with the costs, equipment, training, etc. On the other hand, the manufacturers basically have forced dealerships into buying this equipment by essentially sending it to them and adding it to their credit account with the brand. Therefore, the dealerships are not really incurring higher costs in this regard and can stay steady on labor rates with room to play to get the job. Regardless, concentrating on pricing and price wars is the completely wrong way either of you should go about it. All you have done is made customers think that this is a cheap business to be in and we all make money hand over fist. All you have done is created the very price shoppers and unreasonable customers you and the dealers all complain about together. 2. On training. Are dealer techs better trained? Yes. And no. Good independent shops have well trained technicians that can handle many, close to all the repairs a dealership can. The difference is in the fact that us dealer techs are sent to only one kind of training, the training from the manufacturer developed directly around their brand and their brand only. We do in fact know our brand better than the independent techs. Not that we are better techs, we just have specific brand oriented training and resources, and that in fact makes us better trained...on our brand. This is what the customer is thinking but not accurately stating in the comments Joe highlighted above. The question is how do independent shops overcome this? I honestly don't know at this time, but look forward to finding the answer alongside of you for the day I make the decision to go from tech to owner. My thoughts on it are that maybe independent shops have to pay for dealership training on brands that they service most in their area? Being able to put on your wall or website that you have techs trained in Brand X, Y and Z as well as a compliment of ASE certifications and independent trainings would probably be really attractive. 3. Salesmen do say whatever it takes to sell a car. It screws us in the dealership service department too. So I don't doubt that some salesmen have said that the customer HAS to take it back to us. However, I don't believe it is rampant and I think most of the customers making that statement are just pulling it out of their collective you know what. They read some sentence somewhere on the internet that might have implied that and they just ran with it. On the other hand, servicing your car with the dealership does offer unique benefits in the removal of hassle further down the line if a problem arises. The documentation is readily available and warranty claims get pushed through much faster. It's not purposefully against independents when we demand documentation or doubt documentation and delay a warranty claim on that. The problem is there are a lot of people who come in with an engine that is done for and some very obviously fake or falsified consecutive documents saying they did get the oil changes from Some Guys Shop and that the engine didn't fail because of lack of maintenance as the 200 pounds of sludge in the valve train implies. So, I think a selling point that you have to convey and spread to the masses is that you have a good documentation system. That if they need it, because they lost their copy, they can easily get copies from you whether it be e-mail, fax or in person to provide in the event that a dealership needs it. That these documents must be accepted as proof of service by the dealer and that the customer does not forfeit any of their benefits or protections by going to you. This needs to be disseminated not just by your shop, but this information needs to bleed out to the masses through popular news and information networks as a general FYI. Also, if you are one of those shops who did a favor by printing out 5 fake repair orders stating they got an oil change from you so they can screw the manufacturer warranty for their neglect, you need to stop. Do not stoop to illegitimate practices just because you THINK you are going to get a customer out of it. Let the customer deal with their failures and don't bail them out. Keeping yourself legitimate removes the scrutiny your documents will get on the dealer side for warranty claims which makes your entire premise of you can come to us and we do keep proper records that must be honored at the dealer an actual one. 4. In some ways you need to stop perpetuating the dealer versus independent war. You need to focus on that you CAN do this service, you DO have the proper equipment and they WILL be satisfied with you. Don't engage in the usual crap I see between indy and dealer techs on my automotive tech group, where each other is calling the other incompetent, monkeys, goobers, hacks, etc. Stay away from putting one down and raising the other, for the sake of our industry and to bring customer expectations on price and service in line, not make them wonder who is more of a shady hack. Focus on what your shop can offer them and that the level of work is on par or better than the dealer. There's nothing wrong with using the dealer service department, just like there is nothing wrong with using any of your shops. We all strive for the same thing, customer service and satisfaction along with quality repairs. In this day and age, with the internet especially, neither of us can afford negativity, nor can the industry, which is all we create with a versus mentality. Oh, one more thing, a lot of us dealer techs also have a strong customer service background. I will be specifically brought out to talk to a customer, answer their questions or do something minor like reset a maintenance light another shop didn't do. The reason they use me is I have a smile on my face and in my voice, I have a personable conversation with them and I know how to compliment them, such as admiring the color of their car, telling them they have a real nice, reliable vehicle that will provide them with many years of reliable use. I know how to speak on their level and in terms they understand and I ensure when we are done I bid them a nice farewell and they have no other questions or things they aren't 100% about. You need to get your techs to be like this in this day and age. The dealers are getting it, make sure you are too. If the customer feels good about the tech as a person, they believe the tech is honest, the shop is honest and they will come back because they want that nice and honest tech to work on their car. I can guarantee this, because I have a whole array of customers who drop off asking for me specifically. This will get you more customers over the dealers than anything else I mentioned.

I don't understand the logic of telling someone to leave and not get their business and money to prevent someone else from leaving and not getting their money. You are just trading one person's money for another, nothing gained and nothing lost. Also I find it very hard to believe that, unless they are smoking in the chair, they are leaving the scent behind when they left, and if they are, I am even more hard up to believe that it is so strong that a little air freshener doesn't resolve it. Sounds like you are just taking personal issue with marijuana, and that sounds like a bad idea to apply to your business, because their money is green too.

Yes, helps immensely. I also asked this in Facebook group I mentioned. We have finalized the first three sections of the document. I will post them here just so you guys can see what we are aiming to do:

Helps tremendously, thank you.

Hi Guys, I love to read here and educate myself on the other side of the shop. Often I see posts about not being able to find techs or all the new techs do not possess the skill and ability to survive in the field or to be compatible with the position you need to fill. I happen to run the Facebook group Automotive Technicians, a 12,000+ member strong community of technicians from around the country. We get a lot of aspiring technicians rolling through and they all have the same concerns, questions and difficulties getting into this field, and many more leave shortly after for a new career direction. I think we can both agree that this directly affects both us techs needing quality co-workers as it does you, the shop owners. I want to put together a document that can address much of what they need to know and answer their questions and more importantly assure them through their insecurities. New techs have a lot of apprehension and insecurity and I feel if we can control this, we can increase the quality of job seeking candidates are out there. I am going to type out some questions that will help me in this. I would really love a lot of different people to respond. If this is not agreeable with the administration here, I understand, and will understand if this gets deleted. Our group is open for shop owners and managers to join, though admittedly some conversations may not sit well with owners and managers, I feel it is best we open the lines of communication and better this industry as a whole. Thanks for your time in reading this and thanks to anyone who answers the questions. I will be checking often, so if you need any clarification on a question, just PM me. --- Questions --- 1. How important is it that a new technician looking for employment with your shop has previously attended a dedicated automotive technician program? Do you prefer that the individual had gone to a nationally recognized school or a local community school? Are there any schools you are more inclined to hire from? Are there any schools your are less inclined to hire from? 2. What sort of tools do you expect a new technician entering the field have on day one of work in your shop? (Detailed lists welcome, but not expected.) 3. What level of pay do you expect to pay new technicians fresh out of school? (A range is best here, it's just to give them expectations.) 4. With this job being all about experience, how do you intend to handle technicians growth? Will you start them with oil changes and then keep feeling them out with more and more difficult jobs until they have the experience needed? Do you like to let them work alongside your more advanced techs to learn? (I find most technicians learn best from observing and then doing, rather than book instruction.) 5. What sort of information do you look for on an application and/or resume? Do you want a detailed tool inventory? Should they provide pictures of their tools? What sort of contacts do you prefer (remember this is for new technicians) to have listed? 6. What is your expectation for the amount of mistakes they will make? What sort of mistakes do you expect? What sort of mistakes do you expect to not see? 7. How can a new technician identify if they have what it takes or not? What level of learning is too slow? 8. How much time over book do you expect and allow for them to complete jobs when they are new? Will you speak with them when they are not meeting your expectation, if so, will you work with them or let them go? 9. What indicates to you that a tech is hungry to learn and how much are you willing to do to advance him beyond oil changes and other basic tasks if he shows aptitude/interest? 10. What are some bad habits that you would like new techs to be aware of and avoid? 11. (Final question.) In your opinion what is the best way for a new technician to develop diagnostic and electrical skills that are in short demand in this industry.

I think the simple solution is that if some input is wrong, not just an opinion that you disagree with, it can be politely corrected. I have been here a year now and read most topics. I very rarely see a tech post on things that a tech could not have sufficient experience or knowledge of. I am not trying to downplay the management role at all, I have been in that role and know it's stresses and situations that call for decisions that seem odd to employees because they don't have all the facts laid out. I also know some things are pretty darn transparent and most people can understand them and give useful advice. I think the OP should quote these specific threads and explain logically how a tech in that thread would not have valuable insight. Otherwise don't rock the boat. Sometimes people outside the box can point out observations that find real solutions that were previously unseen. I run a Facebook group for techs and we allow shop owners, advisors, DIYers and Joe Public. It has allowed many of us to clear up misconceptions and adapt outside the box ideas to positively affect our day to day. We are also in the process of completing a forum. So if any tech wants something more focused to them inbox me. Otherwise, I am educated, I have management experience and plan to open a shop. If I see something that I know I can provide an alternative view on or provide a factual analysis from my experience than I will add it thoughtfully.

I think it is silly to just assume a tech has no business sense, or experience in another field at management. To state the techs here are 19 year old quick lube guys is reaching at best. A lot of techs are vested more in the business than just "I fix the cars." If the business suddenly closed tomorrow the tech is out of a job and an income. Techs are also on the front lines, all the business decisions made affect them and they personally witness the fruition or futility of certain decisions. A lot of large corporations include methods for their employees on all levels to make recommendations or suggestions on things that should change in how the business is run. I personally received the World Class Service award for one of my suggestions at Bank of America for increasing customer satisfaction with some suggested policy changes, it also came with a very nice financial reward. There is a difference between a tech telling you how to handle your insurance obligations and choices versus whether or not a brake lathe is a worthwhile investment. The techs know how much business comes in because of the turned rotors option, they know how often they are over there using the machine, how many hours they get paid off it (which directly correlates to how many hours the customer pays to the shop). Techs are held responsible for their comebacks in the flat rate world. We have to do it again for free if it came out bad, and therefore, we can accurately state how many issues arise due to comebacks for a specific type of job. My job posts our comeback rates per tech, per issue and cumulative for the shop along with many other statistics for us all to review in the break room. Heck, I know my shops average gross is around 200,000.00 a month between parts and service. I know our average overhead is around 40,000.00 per month. I know that overhead includes the paychecks of all hourly and flat rate techs. I know the advisors and parts guys get paid off the net of 160,000.00 and that their paycheck is determined by the previous month. They get 0.6% of that net per week the following month. I know my manager is paid off the gross. I know the parts manager gets 0.7 on the net. So to think that all techs do not have a clue about all things business is foolish. If I post something, it is because I have direct knowledge or experience about what I am posting about and can offer an alternative point of view. Not because I am a tech, but because I am a highly educated and motivated person who is here to learn from others of the same type.

Those times are per axle, so 2.0 for just the fronts and 2.0 for just the rear.

Since you haven't provided anything relevant other than assumptions of what I do and don't know about what goes on in the place of business I work at. I will just say this: I hold an automotive service degree, which I obtained after I was laid off from my previous job, which was an investment advisor for Bank of America. I also hold a finance degree, which was required to hold the job I had. So, I have a little idea of how business works, and by a little, since I helped advise owners of companies multiple 100s of times larger than yours, I mean a lot. I also am currently working on my business management degree, so that when I do finally pull the trigger on my own shop, I will have an excellent shot at staying solvent and viable. Notice how I said shop? That is because I already am an actual business owner, I am registered with the state of RI and carry a personal liability rider and report all my side work as income to keep legitimate and build a client base for my future endeavors. So I do know a little something about running a business of my own as well. Furthermore, I happen to be the one living in Rhode Island, seeing the prices of dealers and independents in my specific area and it qualifies me a whole lot more than you to know what is a deal for the area. Lastly, anyone can open a business, it does not mean they have good business sense, or any sort of authority over knowledge on how to run one. Your contempt for techs tells me a lot about you.

I have worked at Subaru and now Hyundai. We turn rotors if we can, which is more often than not. For warranty work we have to use the on-car, if not we can use either-or. We get a lot of brake jobs. Even though our labor rate is high at 105.00, our brake jobs costs are generally lower than the independent shops who (in my opinion, foolishly) only go the new rotors route. We have flat pricing for our brands. 249.95 includes new OEM pads and hardware, turned rotors, serviced calipers for the rear, 299.95 for the same in the front. If it is an off brand pricing varies, but it usually all falls between 199.95 and 299.95. Our brake jobs with turned rotors still take an hour or less for any of our techs to do, I usually get them out in 50 minutes time. Our comeback rate on them is low as well. We charge 0.5 for the turning of rotors per axle. So if they need new rotors it now becomes 199.95 + cost of rotors for the rear, or 249.95 + cost of rotors for the front. This is OEM of course. The average cost of rotors is around 69.95, so we are talking about 339.95 rear or 389.95 front. It's a substantial savings in the customer's eyes. Average brake job with rotors at an indy shop around here is about 299.95 to 399.95, and I couldn't tell you in good conscious what brand parts that includes. Most of them refuse to turn rotors, which helps us stay busy with gravy brakes. Our techs get paid 2.0 with a resurface or 1.5 with replacements.

As a technician, I spend a lot of time with these ROs, doing these cheap oil changes. I have taken the time to peruse the vehicle service history and notice that it is all oil changes and all coincides around the date of our mailings. I see previous recommendations, including the gravy stuff like brakes. You will see when they come back at the next coupon mailing that the brakes are nice and new, but your shop didn't do them, but you are stuck with the 19.95 loss leader oil change time and time again. I have always said to myself, when it comes time to open my shop, that I will not bother with these. The type of people not willing to pay a fair price for an oil change (29.95 to 49.95 depending on vehicle capacity, filter and oil type) are not the customers you want. They almost always never end up doing any upsells which was the point of getting them through the door with the coupon in the first place. Let Jiffy Lube have them with their horrid service from unqualified techs. http://www.jiffylubeproblems.info -- it exists for a reason. A friend of mine has a better system in place. I don't remember all the details, but if you bring in a vehicle for an oil change with-in +/- 50 miles of the recommended interval from their last sticker, you get 2 points. +/- 100 miles and you get 1 point. Every 5 points you can get a discounted oil change or save up to 10 points and get an oil change with a free tire rotation. I figure this can be customized to offer many different bonuses at multiple point levels. It will have the same desired affect of building customer loyalty and getting them through the door for upsells, but it will not affect your bottom line as negatively, if at all.

I will post from a tech's perspective, but first I want to say, our tool truck comes the same day, the same time, each and every week. Perhaps the shop owner/manager should not be scheduling directly at that time, or schedule lighter? Expecting them to finish an oil change and then do their business is one thing, expect them to finish that brake job they just got the wheels off for is another. When the tool truck arrives, we need to get our tool purchases taken care of, our bills paid, our questions answered and our warranties fulfilled. Those tools are what are making us money and in direct relation making you money. There are some battles you should avoid and this is one of them. If I had a manager who got upset at that 15-20 minutes, if that, that isn't even every week as we do not make the kind of money required to be purchasing these tools every week, I would secretly be looking for a new job to push my box into. Maybe that doesn't resonate with you, because I am some random tech on the internet, but how do you know your A guy isn't feeling the exact same way? Can you afford to lose a quality tech over this? On top of that, Snap-On and Matco and Mac and Cornwell, and whoever else comes by your shop, do not have store fronts. We cannot go around chasing them on their routes, because we need to be at work too, most of them are cautious about meeting up with you after work because if they are caught selling on an area that is covered by someone else's route, even if it is your house, they get in a lot of trouble. Nor do I feel I should have to do this. No shop is helping me with the 40,000.00 of tools that I have acquired, so please do not make my infrequent and short visits on the truck difficult. I also only get a 30 minute lunch, at my manager's discretion, for a 10+ hour day, no other breaks, so call it my one 15 minute break for the week.

As a newer tech in the industry, my foundation was working on my own car and family cars, but that was mostly maintenance work and part swapping. Now-a-days in this "right now" world, most people will not allow a family member to take some time to try to figure out a complicated problem, which I don't necessarily blame them. Add to the fact that most job listings, even GST listings, are asking for 2-5 years of experience for entry level positions, and it makes it even harder for a young tech to build on those fundamentals. Even in my new dealer job, where I was hired as a n hourly tech to fill the gaps, I am most often used to pick up the lube tech's slack and then when I wander over in down time to help and observe the A tech on a diag issue, I am often pulled away for an oil change, or to clean up the shop equipment area. I understand paying your dues and this work needs to be done, but where would I build on these fundamentals in these working situations? I don't expect a shop to fully train you from no experience or knowledge on, but the shop has to be responsible for building the techs foundation as well, to ensure future techs will be available. This career is unique in that you need thousands of dollars invested into tools to get the experience you need, and that there is no substitution for that experience. I would be willing to assume that you are seeing a lot of these young guys coming fresh out of school or after a brief stint in a dealership. The school can only teach theory and the dealership is not interested in building a tech, they prefer the revolving door method. I am glad to know guys like you, Joe, are interested in young techs and the desire to plant the seeds and water them. It's just very hard, more today than ever, to get those foundations as a young tech.

I know I do not own a shop, but I do plenty of side work (legitimate, I report it and have a business with insurance, growing a clientele to one day hopefully make the leap), and my rule of thumb is to not even get involved with the price shoppers. I give them my price and that is that. If they insist on providing their own (cheap) parts, my labor rate goes up a bit to absorb the part profit loss and I make it very clear, and have it written very clearly on the receipt they receive, that I do not warranty their part nor cover the labor of replacing it due to premature failure of said part.

As a fellow tech, the real problem that I see in the trenches, is that diag is too often given away by the advisors and service managers. Then when they give it away, they expect you to eat that time too. They seem to think that you shouldn't get paid, because they didn't get paid for their decisions. The resolution to this is for shops to stop catering to the idea that time is free just because a repair hasn't been performed yet. The customer needs to be told (explained to) that the repair process starts at the identification of the problem step and not at the installation of the replacement part. Time is money and as techs we should be paid not only for what we can do, but what we know. It is up to the management to figure out if the 2 hours the tech took was because he was unfamiliar and another tech would have done it in 1 or if that was a legit 2 hours, but they need to stop even taking in complex issues without pointing out that the customer will be responsible to pay for the diag time. Obviously we cannot expect 0.3 for every low tire light that comes in and we put air in it, but that CEL scan should only be free when the only thing the customer is getting out of it is a print out with a code. The only thing I would give for free is an educated guess with a disclaimer. Unfortunately, this is an idealistic situation, a shop can start doing this tomorrow, and somewhere in the city some Craigslist "tech" or other start-up/franchise shop will run a free diag gimmick and the customer will walk out the door the moment they are told diag is sold in 0.5 blocks. I do not see any realistic way to re-train the customer and rid the world of people who will work for free in a hope they make 0.3 on a quick part swap after the diag. Am I cynical? Maybe. I would love to know of any other realistic outcome though. The way my current dealer handles this is through teams. We are open Monday-Saturday 7:30 AM to 9 PM. We have 2 5 guy tech teams, one works Monday-Wednesday 7:30 AM to 9 PM (roughly 39.5 hours a week) and the other covers the same hours Thursday-Saturday. They rotate every 5 weeks, which is another benefit, but that is another post. This way the A guy gets the same hours as the guy doing gravy. They are all in the shop for the same amount of hours, they all get paid the same amount of hours. It has it's downfalls, especially if a slacker gets on board, but when running well oiled, the guy chasing an intermittent CAN failure isn't begrudging the guy doing a Service E and 4 wheel brake job, he is instead, encouraging that guy to pile on as many hours as possible to make up for the lack of output (not work) of hours he is doing. They never earn less than 40, even on slow weeks.

Joe, what happens when that bad apple is actually in a management position. How would you as the owner want to be told without the employees looking like the complainers?

This guy showed up to my dealership last week. When he came in the service adviser asked him what he would like done to his car. He didn't know and didn't know what he came in for.

This is an interesting read. It is good to read your perceptions on this, especially with what I am seeing is the concern with dealerships doing free diag and it being tough to compete with. I have to admit, yes the dealers do a lot of free diag, even now without the hitch of "it's free if you do the work with us." The reason it is free is not because the dealership is absorbing the cost, it is because the tech is absorbing the cost because the dealership refuses to pay us, saying the opportunity to upsell a job is benefit enough to us. Let me just say, I applaud you guys who are charging, rightfully so, for diagnostics and educating the customer on what diag really is and why it costs money. I also have long lived by the idea that the customer who expects it to be free and uses the price shopping line to try to call you a crook for covering diag time is not the customer you want to keep anyway. If and when I ever open my own shop, I plan to sell diag in half-hour time blocks. Giving the customer the option to continue or terminate the diagnostic process if they wish not to spend anymore. Time is money and diag is time. Also, I believe all electrical work and diagnosis should be straight time, thoughts?

Flat rate and I do it all from LOF right up to diag.

I make 11.00 flat rate, I have 5 of 6 Subaru certifications, state inspector, EPA 609, among a decently stocked tool box. I wish I made 12-14.00 an hour. That is why I and others want out so fast. It is hard. My son comes first and I want to give him a good life, and that's not possible in this industry in my experience.

I would like to chime in from the other side of the fence. I am a tech, I graduated from a local trade school in February of 2012 with an A average, which entitles me to a nice starting tool set from my school through Snap-On as no charge to me. I pursued my state safety and emissions inspector license on my own to make myself more employable. I finally got hired into a dealer, and I am not happy there. I hear more good than bad from other techs all over the country through a FB group I belong to. I see the advertisements placed out by my local shops, maybe even some of them are excellent places to work. In the short time of my career, I have already decided I don't want to continue in this field. All my job searches are now back into the banking industry and some retail management as this is where I worked in the past for much better and more stable wages. To answer your question about where all the techs are from the tech schools, the better of us get recruited into the dealerships before we even graduate, and then we get a very sour taste from this career and then we move out of the field pretty quickly. I know of the guys I graduated with me and one other are the only ones still working as techs, and this week I have 2 non-industry interviews. I wish you the best of luck. From reading, I believe there are some great shop owners here who take care of techs, but I have bills and a family to support, and I cannot afford to take another risk in this industry and I imagine more and more techs feel this way.