Should there be a standard Diagnostic charge

[Joe Marconi]

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[Gonzo]

Here's a twist to the use of diagnostics that I ran across today. An extended warranty company would not honor a diagnostic charge... well I should say they did honor some of it. .3 tenths of the diagnostic charge. Not even a full diagnostics (65.00) Oh, and of course they also adjusted the labor time, and of course.... the part (from the dealership) was to high and that had to be adjusted.

 

Which left the customer paying out his deductible and the difference in costs. He's a regular customer of mine, but he still was chapped. I just so happen to have a copy of Brake and Front end laying there opened up to my article. (diagnostic fee or diagnostic free) The guy sat there and read it... and when he was done reading... he grabbed his check book, gladly wrote me out a check and said... "Them bastards at the extended warranty company are going to get a piece of my mind tonight."

 

So, here's another issue with the diagnostic charges... these extended warranty companies that pull the strings to a customers purse from across a phone line. Man, what a joke. I guess it's all the more reason to keep writing about this stuff and get more shops across the country involved.

[Jeff]

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[Gonzo]

Along the line of "free". I had a advertising sales rep in the office earlier this week. She was selling ads in the local "coupon" rag. All the other auto shops had "free" A/C check, Engine Light Test, $10.00 LOF etc, etc. I explained to her that I do not work for free, and that there is nothing in life free. Ther pricing was rather expenseve and required a long term contract. I explained it would be difficult to advertise in their paper and compete with the freebies. Her response was "We all do something for free to build our business. I am here for free to show you our publication." I told her I wasnt intrested and thank you for coming by. I dont want to use up anymore of your free time.

 

 

When I see a doctor advertise "Free exams all this week" I'll do something for free then.........

and I doubt she was there for "free" I'll bet she works commission... so her time is not free but based on how much effort she uses to get your business... thus...you're right... nothing is free....

Edited April 30, 2010 by Gonzo

[Mark]

I agree totally. I would have serious issue with that part supplier!

 

But, let me plays devil’s advocate for a minute: We all know that there is no such thing as a "Free Diagnosis". It's either bait or switch type advertising or they are building the DIAG into the price of the job. We do a lot of diagnostic work and get tons of people coming to us for check engine lights and the first thing they ask is…How Much for the Analysis?. For a lot of new customers, it’s always a battle to try to educate them. The time spent is a killer and many say ok, but don't like it. My fear is that we will be perceived as high-priced with all other services and may not have the chance to gain a customer...

 

So, here is what we are doing as an experiment. When a customer now asks what we charge for a check engine we offer them a complimentary scan to see what direction we need to go and what tests are needed to determine the cause the check engine light. So far, we have had NO issues and actually sell the DIAG time after the initial scan. We have maintained our price structure and eliminated the grief.

 

What do you think?????

 

Hello Folks,

I have been a lurker on your site for a couple of years now and enjoy reading and seeing things from an independent shop (yep that's what we call you guys ) perspective. I am an owner of 5 locations of a national automotive repair franchise. The questions and problems you are facing today we crossed over 8-10 yrs ago.

This set of posts hit home with me because for years we have offered a value priced oil change and coocasionally a "free scan test".

I find it interesting, the assumptions being made as too why we do so.

I can assure you of a couple of things:

1.) We are NOT going under...

2.) We provide a Premium service, we do NOT cut corners.

3.) My management and technicians are professionals.

4.) We are hard working HONEST people.

 

Oil Change

So you ask why?

Well there are several reasons but let me address the "oil change" first.

What service needs to be done on a vehicle the most? Yep the oil change.

So in a diluted market of "on every corner" oil change place I want that maintenance work and the opportunity 3-5 times a year to find and bill labor hours! Even it that means giving up some of my oil change price.

Quite frankly guys I have $8 in an average oil change.

That's with a synthetic blend 5w-30 approved oil and a quality oil filter. You've have to work it to make it work!

It costs on average $12-$15 easily to advertise per customer.

Guess what..each one of my 6 bay shops averages well over 200 cars a week.

We get 3-5 times a year to look over the vehicle both for repair and maintenance work alike. It pays for itself and actually gives our customers the additional funds they save on the oil change to spend in other areas on their vehicle. Having done it for several years now I can say with much certaintity that it works and it's not going away. Now I will be honest and say that it does have some draw backs but they can be handled and addressed easily. And yes it does bring in the occasional "bottom feeder" but hey doesn't that go with just about anything?

 

How about the scan test?

I will tell you that it has taken me awhile to come around on the "Free Scan Test" concept. Having been a technician I thought it demeaned us.

"My knowledge and experience deserves more than a Free Scan Test!"

But to be honest if we keep it simple and to the point and educate the customer then in almost always turns into billing diagnostic time.

My Free Scan Test is simply that.. a quick code pull.

Upfront the customer is advised so and they are advised that it may need more diagnostice time. The phrase Bait and Switch crosses your mind right now, right? Look at it like this guys, they are going to go somewhere and to be honest I would rather have them come to me and educate them instead of AZ and they get sold a bunch of parts they don't need (O2 Sensors come to mind).

Handled right, and some training is required, this to can bring in more business that otherwise wouldn't have come in.

 

I guess more than anything I wanted you to know that some of these things do work and have increased my business substantially. I am a firm believer in that more cars equals more opportunities. I want as many opportunities as possible!

In summary, I would challenge you to take the excuses out of why you don't want to or can't do these things and start finding reasons why you should.

I run my shops like you do and do these things as well. It can be done! Everything is local.

Even though I have a franchise name it is not well known where I am at so basically I have a independent shop(s) surrounded by the big box automotive repair shops and parts houses.

I respect the independent shop and do not want to see it go away but if they don't get on board with some these concepts I am afraid they will.

Just a thought...

[Gonzo]

Hello Folks,

I have been a lurker on your site for a couple of years now and enjoy reading and seeing things from an independent shop (yep that's what we call you guys ) perspective. I am an owner of 5 locations of a national automotive repair franchise. The questions and problems you are facing today we crossed over 8-10 yrs ago.

This set of posts hit home with me because for years we have offered a value priced oil change and coocasionally a "free scan test".

I find it interesting, the assumptions being made as too why we do so.

I can assure you of a couple of things:

1.) We are NOT going under...

2.) We provide a Premium service, we do NOT cut corners.

3.) My management and technicians are professionals.

4.) We are hard working HONEST people.

 

Oil Change

So you ask why?

Well there are several reasons but let me address the "oil change" first.

What service needs to be done on a vehicle the most? Yep the oil change.

So in a diluted market of "on every corner" oil change place I want that maintenance work and the opportunity 3-5 times a year to find and bill labor hours! Even it that means giving up some of my oil change price.

Quite frankly guys I have $8 in an average oil change.

That's with a synthetic blend 5w-30 approved oil and a quality oil filter. You've have to work it to make it work!

It costs on average $12-$15 easily to advertise per customer.

Guess what..each one of my 6 bay shops averages well over 200 cars a week.

We get 3-5 times a year to look over the vehicle both for repair and maintenance work alike. It pays for itself and actually gives our customers the additional funds they save on the oil change to spend in other areas on their vehicle. Having done it for several years now I can say with much certaintity that it works and it's not going away. Now I will be honest and say that it does have some draw backs but they can be handled and addressed easily. And yes it does bring in the occasional "bottom feeder" but hey doesn't that go with just about anything?

 

How about the scan test?

I will tell you that it has taken me awhile to come around on the "Free Scan Test" concept. Having been a technician I thought it demeaned us.

"My knowledge and experience deserves more than a Free Scan Test!"

But to be honest if we keep it simple and to the point and educate the customer then in almost always turns into billing diagnostic time.

My Free Scan Test is simply that.. a quick code pull.

Upfront the customer is advised so and they are advised that it may need more diagnostice time. The phrase Bait and Switch crosses your mind right now, right? Look at it like this guys, they are going to go somewhere and to be honest I would rather have them come to me and educate them instead of AZ and they get sold a bunch of parts they don't need (O2 Sensors come to mind).

Handled right, and some training is required, this to can bring in more business that otherwise wouldn't have come in.

 

I guess more than anything I wanted you to know that some of these things do work and have increased my business substantially. I am a firm believer in that more cars equals more opportunities. I want as many opportunities as possible!

In summary, I would challenge you to take the excuses out of why you don't want to or can't do these things and start finding reasons why you should.

I run my shops like you do and do these things as well. It can be done! Everything is local.

Even though I have a franchise name it is not well known where I am at so basically I have a independent shop(s) surrounded by the big box automotive repair shops and parts houses.

I respect the independent shop and do not want to see it go away but if they don't get on board with some these concepts I am afraid they will.

Just a thought...

 

It still sounds like a bait and switch to me....

[Mark]

It still sounds like a bait and switch to me....

Definition of Bait and Switch:

-A sales tactic in which a bargain-priced item is used to attract customers who are then encouraged to purchase a more expensive similar item.

 

Did anything I post really ring of the true definition of "bait and switch". Nope.

The truth is I offer a much better price than most on an oil change and occasionally a "free scan test" to get a customer in the door that might not have, to show them the quality of service and repair that I can offer. And guess what it's the best advertising I do! Not only did I take care of my customer in a timely professional manner, I did so in a manner they can afford 3-5 times a year. And when it's time for the repair or the 60k service, it's me they are going to remember because not only did I save them $10-$12 on every oil change this year, I did it as quickly and much more professionally than the guy around the corner.

It's not bait and switch, because we give them EXACTLY what they want....quality service at a value.

You may wonder why I'm pushing the issue here or why I even care.

I probably shouldn't because I am doing well and I can go to bed tonight knowing that I did it the right way.

But the issues and posts I see here are me 10+ years ago and I've crossed over that bridge and gotten to

the other side.

By the way, did I mention because I get over 200 cars a week in each location that we are one of the biggest

donater to the local food bank. My employees andcustomers are awesome and appreciate a convenient place to drop them!

 

I'm pretty confident that I'm wasting my time but whether it wants to be admitted or not.

There are plenty of us out there doing things as well as or better than the "independents"

and we are not taking advantage of anyone, we are not shade tree, we do not bait and switch (we offer value),

we are not going under or away, and most importantly I run a strong profitable operation...for 15 yrs.

 

PS- I bought 5 of your books for my shops today. I got them on Amazon (mostly cause I order some other things there) and can't wait to put them in my show rooms!

 

-M

[Gonzo]

Definition of Bait and Switch:

-A sales tactic in which a bargain-priced item is used to attract customers who are then encouraged to purchase a more expensive similar item.

 

Did anything I post really ring of the true definition of "bait and switch". Nope.

The truth is I offer a much better price than most on an oil change and occasionally a "free scan test" to get a customer in the door that might not have, to show them the quality of service and repair that I can offer. And guess what it's the best advertising I do! Not only did I take care of my customer in a timely professional manner, I did so in a manner they can afford 3-5 times a year. And when it's time for the repair or the 60k service, it's me they are going to remember because not only did I save them $10-$12 on every oil change this year, I did it as quickly and much more professionally than the guy around the corner.

It's not bait and switch, because we give them EXACTLY what they want....quality service at a value.

You may wonder why I'm pushing the issue here or why I even care.

I probably shouldn't because I am doing well and I can go to bed tonight knowing that I did it the right way.

But the issues and posts I see here are me 10+ years ago and I've crossed over that bridge and gotten to

the other side.

By the way, did I mention because I get over 200 cars a week in each location that we are one of the biggest

donater to the local food bank. My employees andcustomers are awesome and appreciate a convenient place to drop them!

 

I'm pretty confident that I'm wasting my time but whether it wants to be admitted or not.

There are plenty of us out there doing things as well as or better than the "independents"

and we are not taking advantage of anyone, we are not shade tree, we do not bait and switch (we offer value),

we are not going under or away, and most importantly I run a strong profitable operation...for 15 yrs.

 

PS- I bought 5 of your books for my shops today. I got them on Amazon (mostly cause I order some other things there) and can't wait to put them in my show rooms!

 

-M

 

Mark, I like your spunk... you show you care about your customers, your business... and most importantly your ethics.... My hat is off to you.

 

My terminology for a bait/switch is only in the customers eyes that they are getting something different than originally expected. If the education is done at the counter to inform them of the "needs" then you're right it's not exactly a bait/switch.

 

I've been at this "independent thing" for nearly 30 years. I started my shop with one test light and one can of wd-40... I ain't kiddin' No money, no backing, no idea I could do it... but I had a goal. Over the years I've had larger shops sizes and tons of clients and techs. But, I'm getting older and my time is still valuable in the shop but most of my efforts are in my columns now. I still turn a good profit out of the shop, but, I don't make a living doing oil changes, or 60k check ups. What I do more than anything else is do work for other repair shops that do not have the background in electronics.

 

I probably do more burn jobs, and total rewires than most dealerships. Body shops, tire shops, tune ups shops and other repair shops is my bread and butter. These guys understand the need for diagnostic time... it's the general public that needs educated.

 

That's where my little book comes in, it's a way to show both sides of the story ... in a humorous way... that might get some attention in the right areas. Hey, got you talking to us "Independents" I hate to say this... but you're as much an independent as all of us little one/two man shops... but you can call yourself whatever you like.

 

As far as ASO... Joe, who I think highly of... has set this up for exactly what you have been discussing.... Everyone in this business... large or small needs to voice their opinions... and be heard and understood by the one and all.

 

Don't be a stranger... keep us informed as to what you think... I'm just one guy... I can only type one letter at a time. But we can be one large voice if we want to be. Thanx Mark... your a class act... A number one with me.

[xrac]

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[Gonzo]

Mark, I am also a franchisee but I do detest cheap oil changes. It brings in a few good customer but a lot of bottom feeders also. I have found I do better by offering a moderately priced oil change ($25.95) with a FREE tire rotation. This drives enough new business and gives me a shot at a customer who is interested in something besides an oil change. I also get to look at his tires, suspension, and brakes when I am rotating tires. I used cheap oil changes early on but have moved away from that. We also tried "FREE DIAGNOSIS" but just could not figure out how to make that work profitably for us. We got too many old pieces of junk that were time wasters. They came in because they knew it was FREE and had no plans to fix anything.

 

We have built our business on repeat customers, referrals and word of mouth as much as anything and have done a good job with it. We won Car-x store of the year for our region in two consecutive years (2007 and 2008). We missed in 2009 but wil have a shot at it again this year so it has worked for us. In February our store ranked 14th in sales out of 170 shops. However, I will say that I have a friend in the San Antonio/Austin areas who is doing much the same thing as you are and he seems to make it work. I am wondering if the sized of the market you are in has a bearing on tactics. Our town is about 125,000 with around 200,000 in the metro area. How large is the market you are in? My thinking is that in a larger market word of mouth is not as effective and it may take a low ball offer to get people to try you.

 

I agree entirely... demagraphics does play a key role in how it's done. A demagraphic area needs to be on the same page as their competitiors... let the work quality do the talking. I don't advertise anymore, and I prefer it that way. Maybe because I'm to tired of chasing the dollar and more inclined to do the work that I do.... good. I like your comments Car-x... good points... good explanation

[Mark]

Mark, I like your spunk... you show you care about your customers, your business... and most importantly your ethics.... My hat is off to you.

 

My terminology for a bait/switch is only in the customers eyes that they are getting something different than originally expected. If the education is done at the counter to inform them of the "needs" then you're right it's not exactly a bait/switch.

 

I've been at this "independent thing" for nearly 30 years. I started my shop with one test light and one can of wd-40... I ain't kiddin' No money, no backing, no idea I could do it... but I had a goal. Over the years I've had larger shops sizes and tons of clients and techs. But, I'm getting older and my time is still valuable in the shop but most of my efforts are in my columns now. I still turn a good profit out of the shop, but, I don't make a living doing oil changes, or 60k check ups. What I do more than anything else is do work for other repair shops that do not have the background in electronics.

 

I probably do more burn jobs, and total rewires than most dealerships. Body shops, tire shops, tune ups shops and other repair shops is my bread and butter. These guys understand the need for diagnostic time... it's the general public that needs educated.

 

That's where my little book comes in, it's a way to show both sides of the story ... in a humorous way... that might get some attention in the right areas. Hey, got you talking to us "Independents" I hate to say this... but you're as much an independent as all of us little one/two man shops... but you can call yourself whatever you like.

 

As far as ASO... Joe, who I think highly of... has set this up for exactly what you have been discussing.... Everyone in this business... large or small needs to voice their opinions... and be heard and understood by the one and all.

 

Don't be a stranger... keep us informed as to what you think... I'm just one guy... I can only type one letter at a time. But we can be one large voice if we want to be. Thanx Mark... your a class act... A number one with me.

 

My passion to change the perception of this industry both inside and out drives me continuously, almost to a fault.

So when I read statements (not all directly by you of course) that knock down the things I'm doing, it get's the blood pumping. I am so open minded and open to new ideas so when I find something that works for me I just gotta

"spread the love", again maybe to a fault. Sorry, it's just me..

You are absolutely correct, I really am an independent and you add that to my openess to try and do new things that would certainly explain my gravitation to this and you great folks. So I want to apologize if I sounded condecending. I was really eluding to that when I said I was there not so long ago.

I'm a blessed guy. I fell into this industry completely by accident and fell in love with it instantly. At every level I pushed

myself to be the best and I am fortunate enough that at 38 yrs of age I am where I am. I think much of the success has

come from the openess to try new things (and I promise they all haven't worked, some where miserable failures) and

to meet and exceed the customers expectations. The rest falls into place!

At 38 I've been doing this almost 20 yrs....still have to remind myself of that.

I absolutely agee about the public needing to be educated about the necessity for "diagnostic time" and I will say again it has taken me some time to come arounf on the "Free Scan Test" and we only do it occasionally but it actually has become a great way to explain how the diag and the time involved, a segway if you will.

Before we lay a hand on the car, we explain that the scan test is really only a code pull that will give us a direction, and then it gives us that opportunity to tell what we will need to do from there and the time and knowledge involved.

My experience has shown that a properly communicated to customer will almost always give us an hour of diagnostic time. The battle on this is from within, the technician inside me screaming. It's actually a little funny, my techs are more on board with it than I am. I think because they understand that alot of people know the parts houses down the street will do it for free and my techs would rather be the one doing it and getting the opportunities!

 

May we all grow and prosper in the way that best suits us!

[Mark]

Mark, I am also a franchisee but I do detest cheap oil changes. It brings in a few good customer but a lot of bottom feeders also. I have found I do better by offering a moderately priced oil change ($25.95) with a FREE tire rotation. This drives enough new business and gives me a shot at a customer who is interested in something besides an oil change. I also get to look at his tires, suspension, and brakes when I am rotating tires. I used cheap oil changes early on but have moved away from that. We also tried "FREE DIAGNOSIS" but just could not figure out how to make that work profitably for us. We got too many old pieces of junk that were time wasters. They came in because they knew it was FREE and had no plans to fix anything.

 

We have built our business on repeat customers, referrals and word of mouth as much as anything and have done a good job with it. We won Car-x store of the year for our region in two consecutive years (2007 and 2008). We missed in 2009 but will have a shot at it again this year so it has worked for us. In February our store ranked 14th in sales out of 170 shops. However, I will say that I have a friend in the San Antonio/Austin areas who is doing much the same thing as you are and he seems to make it work. I am wondering if the size of the market you are in has a bearing on tactics. Our town is about 125,000 with around 200,000 in the metro area. How large is the market you are in? My thinking is that in a larger market word of mouth is not as effective and it may take a low ball offer to get people to try you.

Carx,

 

Thanks for your comments, great stuff. I'm short on time this morning but will get back to you on this tonight.

I think you'll find the demographics interesting and when I give you the whole story you're going to be surprised

as I am!

[xrac]

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[Gonzo]

Mark, I can see that we could probably make what you are doing work and we do some "free code" reading on a case by case basis. However, the biggest issue for me is we have a shop locally that offers "free diagnosis" not just code reading. They have grown a large business doing this. I like and respect the owner and his shop has every diagnostic tool you can imagine but my impression is that their diagnosis approach includes replacing many parts that could be related to the problem creating some very large tickets. We attempt to follow suit with free diagnosis (not just code reading) but we could not make it profitable because the size of our tickets didn't cover our time invetment. Plus our business model is geared toward rapid turnaround (usually same day) and that is not the way the other shop operates.

 

On the cheap oil change front we offered a basic oil change and a full service oil change the first six years our shop was open. However, about five years ago we dropped the basic lube, oil, and filter. This also improved our customer base. It helped weed out people who wanted an oil change and didn't want you to look at anything else. The funny thing is now with our growing business our oil change customer base is also growing. Our sales for 2010 so far are up 15% over last year.

 

So many great comments... it's really great to see the ideas from around the country.

Me, I'm not a "street corner" repair shop, I'm strictly a specialist... as such, by the time a customer finds their way to my shop they usually have been thru several other shops or have been recommended to me from another shop because of the complexity of their problem. That's where I get into an issue with "free diagnostics"... I'll get the same old line at the front counter..."They already diagnosed it, so I don't need it diagnosed again... so I'm not paying for that... I just want to find out what's wrong and how much it will cost to fix it." You know, I've been doing this for a long, long, long time... and it's a hot topic with me. I can't give away my time if it's one of those problems that take hours to solve. Even though I have a set rate for an average diagnostic time... there are cases where I may spend a great deal of time solving a paticular problem.

 

Friday, I was at the shop late... about an hour after closing working on my own old truck (input shaft bearing went out in the transmission) Out of habit I answered the phone... it was one of the tire stores... "Can you scan a 01 Nissan?" that was the only question... I said yes... and about another hour later a car pulls up and two ladies get out... they wanted it fixed right then, and didn't want to pay for a diagnostics because it was already done at the tire store... I asked... so what was the results of the diagnostics... their answer... "They couldn't find out what was wrong." Here I go agian....

 

The car is sitting in my shop, and I'll get to it on Monday. And, after some convincing the ladies agreed to let me "diagnose" it ... go figure.

[Joe Marconi]

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[Gonzo]

Mark, I have intentionally waited to participate in this forum to see how others would respond. As the co-founder of AutoShopOwner.com I did not want my comments in any way dictate the direction of the conversation. Rather, I wanted the members of ASO to openly express their feelings on this touchy subject.

Initially the term you used, "lurking", seemed a bit a bit offensive and wanted to be sure I understood what you thoughts and opinions are before jumping into the forum.

 

I am a 38 year veteran of the aftermarket "independent" and spent the last 30 years in my own business. I don't know your background, but I will tell you mine.

 

Guys like me came from the streets. We were fixing cars while still in high school and did it because we loved everything about mechanics. We were the best of the best in terms of repairing cars so we naturally started our own shops. It was not long after we were in business that we realized that the skills of mechanics have little to do with the skills of running a business. We had no formal business training prior to starting our companies.

 

But changing one's mind set is difficult for many independents. I guess I was lucky and did change. I changed from the "man in business" to the "businessman". The more I learning about business the more my company grew. Last year I build a second location and I need to tell you I researched all business models from quick lubes, tire stores, dealerships and other franchises in creating my own business plan.

 

I have grown steadily through the years and continue to grow in a time where most other businesses are having a tough time and many are failing.

The oil change issue can be debated to death, and I can appreciate both sides. I have adopted a lost leader approach with respect to oil changes because I too believe that a healthy car counts promotes opportunity and opportunity increases sales.

 

We can also debate the "Free Scan and Advise" issue to death also. I see both sides and fully understand the marketing approach you speak of.

 

The thing to remember is that we are all in this game together. We need to learn from each other and work to be the best we can be. But people have the right to choose how they run their business and we must be tolerant of others and not judgmental. Yes, I have to admit, that like you the business decisions

I have made resulted in a tremendous growth spurt in the last two years, primarily for all the reasons you speak of Mark. However, I can't impose my beliefs on others and I hold all my fellow ASO colleagues in the highest esteem.

 

Maybe I am a dreamer, but collectively we can make a difference. That's why I have dedicated a great portion of my time to my website, AutoShopOwner.com. Through the open exchange and sharing of ideas, great things can happen.

 

The truth is Mark, we NEED to hear from business people like yourself and I for one welcome you aboard. Please don't "Lurk". Please participate; we can all learn from each other.

 

Joe Marconi

 

Joe, buddy ya said it right. I will have to put myself into the catagorey of "self made mechanic/owner" as I stated in my book.. "If only I knew then what I know now...."

 

As you said, me too, I was the kid that fixed everybody's car, I was good at it ... at a very young age... and I'd would agree that it was being a mechanic first and businessman second.

 

I am very... very proud to be a part of the independent work force in this industry and not ashamed to say "I'm an independent"... there's no golden wrench under my pillow... I'm a blue collar family guy with a lot of time learning to run a business... Nobody handed my a pot full of money to start... I did it the hard way... and I'm still here.

 

Joe, I guess that's why we see eye on a lot of issues... you and me... we came from the same streets. Glad to be a part of ASO... glad to keep posting... I think it's great what you've done with ASO...

 

more shops should know about it.

[Jeff]

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[Joe Marconi]

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[DewayneP]

I'll chime in a little on the extremely low cost oil change deals that are out there. The reason most of us (small one or 2 man shops) don't do them is because it doesn't work economically for us. I don't purchase enough oil or buy the cheap filters to be able to get my COGS down to $8/oil change. I purchase NAPA gold oil filters and use bottled oil (again, I don't use enough oil to buy it in bulk, a 55 gallon drum may last me a year). It costs me over $17 for materials for an oil change. If I priced it at $19.95 I would be losing money. I am priced at $26.95 for a full-on lube, oil and filter which includes lubricating the locks, door hinges, trunk and hood hinges, fill washer fluid, brake fluid, PS fluid, etc... I end up with about $7 for my labor, I think that is low enough. To be honest, I would rather not be pushing a low cost oil change and would rather push a "Free" scan of codes as that will invariably lead to more work without a feeling of "bait and switch". If I offered a low cost oil change and the customer left with a $75 ticket that would bother me. I have read that the "average" ticket at most oil change places is over $75. Those people are just looking for an oil change and they end up with the motor flush or coolant flush or trans flush, etc.... Those are customers that won't be back or will tell their friends about how they got scammed at "xyz" auto shop.

I don't see this forum as a meeting place for quick-lubes or shops like that. I may be wrong, but I think most of the shops on here are more of the "independent" type trying to be competitive in a difficult market. I also think the bait-and-switch doesn't have to be getting them in the door with a low advertised price and then hitting them with a higher price for the same service. It can also mean (to me) getting them in the door with a low cost service and then hitting them with high pressure sales of another add-on service. That to me is bait-and-switch. If you are truly honest about a $19.95 oil change being profitable then you shouldn't be upset that you have a service manager that isn't up-selling customers. I would have to say that is probably not the case.

In my case, I don't want to have to put on a hard sell to get a customer to spend more with me. If they are happy with just an oil change then I am happy to provide that service for them.

[Mark]

Mark, I have intentionally waited to participate in this forum to see how others would respond. As the co-founder of AutoShopOwner.com I did not want my comments in any way dictate the direction of the conversation. Rather, I wanted the members of ASO to openly express their feelings on this touchy subject.

 

Initially the term you used, “lurking”, seemed a bit offensive and I wanted to be sure I understood what you thoughts and opinions are before jumping into the forum.

 

I am a 38 year veteran of the aftermarket “independent” and spent the last 30 years in my own business. I don’t know your background, but I will tell you mine.

 

Guys like me came from the streets. We were fixing cars while still in high school and did it because we loved everything about mechanics. We were the best of the best in terms of repairing cars so we naturally started our own shops. It was not long after we were in business that we realized that the skills of mechanics have little to do with the skills of running a business. We had no formal business training prior to starting our companies.

 

But changing one’s mind set is difficult for many independents. I guess I was lucky and did change. I changed from the “man in business” to the “businessman”. The more I learning about business the more my company grew. Last year I build a second location and I need to tell you I researched all business models from quick lubes, tire stores, dealerships and other franchises in creating my own business plan.

 

I have grown steadily through the years and continue to grow in a time where most other businesses are having a tough time and many are failing.

 

The oil change issue can be debated to death, and I can appreciate both sides. I have adopted a lost leader approach with respect to oil changes because I too believe that a healthy car counts promotes opportunity and opportunity increases sales.

 

We can also debate the “Free Scan and Advise” issue to death also. I see both sides and fully understand the marketing approach you speak of.

 

The thing to remember is that we are all in this game together. We need to learn from each other and work to be the best we can be. But people have the right to choose how they run their business and we must be tolerant of others and not judgmental. Yes, I have to admit, that like you the business decisions I have made resulted in a tremendous growth spurt in the last two years, primarily for all the reasons you speak of Mark. However, I can’t impose my beliefs on others and I hold all my fellow ASO colleagues in the highest esteem.

 

Maybe I am a dreamer, but collectively we can make a difference. That’s why I have dedicated a great portion of my time to my website, AutoShopOwner.com. Through the open exchange and sharing of ideas, great things can happen.

 

The truth is Mark, we NEED to hear from business people like yourself and I for one welcome you aboard. Please don’t “Lurk”. Please participate; we can all learn from each other.

 

Joe Marconi

Joe,

I first want to apologize for the use the phrase "lurker" maybe it's not the best terminology. Basically I've been watching and reading for a little while now and I really enjoy it. My biggest issue is I just don't have near the time I would like to write in the forums. I will make a more concerted effort to do so in the future because gentleman I genuinely respect all of you. You are all class acts, I've seen it and read it for a couple of years now. I guess that's what motivated me to post to begin with and you are correct both oil change and scan test can be debated to death. I just wanted folks to know that there was someone out there whom it works for and I am not a crook or "bait and switching" the customer from any point of view. I felt comfortable enough with these forums to do so because of the open exchange of ideas and the top notch folks on here. I digress..

I too am a dreamer. I am so motivated to change the reputation of this industry. I, like you, am a hard working honest man and nothing bothers me more the general perception of our industry (I am reminded of a story/post I read here about a customer out in the shop talking to a shopowner's son about making sure he went to college so he didn't have to work in the shop...WOW that hit home!) and how we can be our own worst enemies. I knew from the beginning that I wanted to be part of the next generation of auto shop owner's and operaters. Let me give you a quick run down of my history.

At 19 I was looking for a "job" and just happened to stumble one as a lube tech in a 8 bay shop in Atlanta. It was 6 bays of repair/maint/etc and 2 bays for oil changes. We averaged about 300 cars a week, split 50/50 with OC's and repairs.

I had never really worked on cars much to that point but was always mechanically inclined, so that part really just came easy. About 2 wks in I had that shining moment in my life where I had found my calling. I knew I wanted to own my own shop and I wanted to be one of the good guys doing it. I immediately dove into tech school and working on the thing I didn't prefer to do..deal with people. I'm a personalable guy and love people but given the choice (even today) I would be OK locked in my office with my laptop. I knew even at 19 that I was going to have to excel at every position in the shop to be a good owner. So long story short I did those things, and now I am a multi shop owner with 5 shops in 4 different markets, doing all things to all vehicles. Noone handed me anything, I earned it, and I have made alot of mistakes but the hard work and honesty pulled me through along with a couple of key things.

* Be Honest

* Treat Your Customers Like You Would Treat Your Grandmother

* Good People (employees) Solve Problems!

* Communications Is A Must (both with customers and employee's alike)

* It's A Big Pie (we only need a sliver)

There's alot more to the story but I won't bore you any further.

 

Thanks for letting me be a part of your dream.

 

Collectively we CAN make a difference!

[Mark]

Joe,

I first want to apologize for the use the phrase "lurker" maybe it's not the best terminology. Basically I've been watching and reading for a little while now and I really enjoy it. My biggest issue is I just don't have near the time I would like to write in the forums. I will make a more concerted effort to do so in the future because gentleman I genuinely respect all of you. You are all class acts, I've seen it and read it for a couple of years now. I guess that's what motivated me to post to begin with and you are correct both oil change and scan test can be debated to death. I just wanted folks to know that there was someone out there whom it works for and I am not a crook or "bait and switching" the customer from any point of view. I felt comfortable enough with these forums to do so because of the open exchange of ideas and the top notch folks on here. I digress..

I too am a dreamer. I am so motivated to change the reputation of this industry. I, like you, am a hard working honest man and nothing bothers me more the general perception of our industry (I am reminded of a story/post I read here about a customer out in the shop talking to a shopowner's son about making sure he went to college so he didn't have to work in the shop...WOW that hit home!) and how we can be our own worst enemies. I knew from the beginning that I wanted to be part of the next generation of auto shop owner's and operaters. Let me give you a quick run down of my history.

At 19 I was looking for a "job" and just happened to stumble one as a lube tech in a 8 bay shop in Atlanta. It was 6 bays of repair/maint/etc and 2 bays for oil changes. We averaged about 300 cars a week, split 50/50 with OC's and repairs.

I had never really worked on cars much to that point but was always mechanically inclined, so that part really just came easy. About 2 wks in I had that shining moment in my life where I had found my calling. I knew I wanted to own my own shop and I wanted to be one of the good guys doing it. I immediately dove into tech school and working on the thing I didn't prefer to do..deal with people. I'm a personalable guy and love people but given the choice (even today) I would be OK locked in my office with my laptop. I knew even at 19 that I was going to have to excel at every position in the shop to be a good owner. So long story short I did those things, and now I am a multi shop owner with 5 shops in 4 different markets, doing all things to all vehicles. Noone handed me anything, I earned it, and I have made alot of mistakes but the hard work and honesty pulled me through along with a couple of key things.

* Be Honest

* Treat Your Customers Like You Would Treat Your Grandmother

* Good People (employees) Solve Problems!

* Communications Is A Must (both with customers and employee's alike)

* It's A Big Pie (we only need a sliver)

There's alot more to the story but I won't bore you any further.

 

Thanks for letting me be a part of your dream.

 

Collectively we CAN make a difference!

By the way I just wanted to add that I am in SC, I started in Atl.

[Mark]

Joe, buddy ya said it right. I will have to put myself into the catagorey of "self made mechanic/owner" as I stated in my book.. "If only I knew then what I know now...."

 

As you said, me too, I was the kid that fixed everybody's car, I was good at it ... at a very young age... and I'd would agree that it was being a mechanic first and businessman second.

 

I am very... very proud to be a part of the independent work force in this industry and not ashamed to say "I'm an independent"... there's no golden wrench under my pillow... I'm a blue collar family guy with a lot of time learning to run a business... Nobody handed my a pot full of money to start... I did it the hard way... and I'm still here.

 

Joe, I guess that's why we see eye on a lot of issues... you and me... we came from the same streets. Glad to be a part of ASO... glad to keep posting... I think it's great what you've done with ASO...

 

more shops should know about it.

At this point, I am regretting using the "independent" thing in my first post, because to be honest it was meant to be funny sarcasm not derogatory. Sorry guys!

[xrac]

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[Mark]

I'll chime in a little on the extremely low cost oil change deals that are out there. The reason most of us (small one or 2 man shops) don't do them is because it doesn't work economically for us. I don't purchase enough oil or buy the cheap filters to be able to get my COGS down to $8/oil change. I purchase NAPA gold oil filters and use bottled oil (again, I don't use enough oil to buy it in bulk, a 55 gallon drum may last me a year). It costs me over $17 for materials for an oil change. If I priced it at $19.95 I would be losing money. I am priced at $26.95 for a full-on lube, oil and filter which includes lubricating the locks, door hinges, trunk and hood hinges, fill washer fluid, brake fluid, PS fluid, etc... I end up with about $7 for my labor, I think that is low enough. To be honest, I would rather not be pushing a low cost oil change and would rather push a "Free" scan of codes as that will invariably lead to more work without a feeling of "bait and switch". If I offered a low cost oil change and the customer left with a $75 ticket that would bother me. I have read that the "average" ticket at most oil change places is over $75. Those people are just looking for an oil change and they end up with the motor flush or coolant flush or trans flush, etc.... Those are customers that won't be back or will tell their friends about how they got scammed at "xyz" auto shop.

I don't see this forum as a meeting place for quick-lubes or shops like that. I may be wrong, but I think most of the shops on here are more of the "independent" type trying to be competitive in a difficult market. I also think the bait-and-switch doesn't have to be getting them in the door with a low advertised price and then hitting them with a higher price for the same service. It can also mean (to me) getting them in the door with a low cost service and then hitting them with high pressure sales of another add-on service. That to me is bait-and-switch. If you are truly honest about a $19.95 oil change being profitable then you shouldn't be upset that you have a service manager that isn't up-selling customers. I would have to say that is probably not the case.

In my case, I don't want to have to put on a hard sell to get a customer to spend more with me. If they are happy with just an oil change then I am happy to provide that service for them.

It is true that it's not for everyone. You will not hear me disagree and there are a million reasons why it isn't good for you.

It looks like what you are doing is working for you and that is a good thing!

I guess the issue I'm struggling with is the assumptions or perception within the industry.

* Cheap oil and filters are used. I am fortunate that I have the buying power to get my COGS down but I can promise you it wasn't easy. Volume also dictates price in this area.

* High Pressure Sales or Bait & Switch. Of course, we do take the opportunity to check a vehicle out. To be honest, I think it's a disservice to NOT check over my customers vehicle. But there is no high pressure, we just inform and educate, and the rest will come. It's a process and I promise you it takes patience and long term thinking. Interestingly enough my oil bays have become a great source for repair work, more so than flushs, add-ons, etc.

Early on I resigned to the fact I wasn't going to "make money" on the oil change but I would in the long term, getting those 3-5 times a year to build relationships with my customers. Check out "Customers For Life" when you get a chance. It's a great read and although it's not directly related, you'll get the drift.

 

Again this is just me and I have found it to be effective. I didn't start out doing things this way, in fact there was a time when I had maybe 10 oil changes a week.

[DewayneP]

Yes, they are a necessary evil. However, my best customers have come from simple oil changes. My new customers, the ones that are interested, i take the time to go over the benefits of regular oil changes, maintenance, checking things like air filters, belts, hoses, etc... They leave my shop knowing that I'm not just there for the sale, I truly do want their cars to last as long or longer than they want them to. I think it helps, in my case, that I'm not a "salesman" as much as I am a technician. I don't care if you don't have me do the work, just be sure to get it done because the vehicle isn't safe. That statement does more than the low-cost services to keep them coming back.

[Joe Marconi]

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[Jeff]

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[Gonzo]

Ok Friends seen this article and wanted to pass it along.

Free Diagnosis...

 

 

Thanks Jeff, I didn't see that article before.... I left a comment... directed the readers to my story... diagnostics fee/diagnostics free.... should stir the pot a little more... LOL

[Joe Marconi]

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[Jeff]

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[xrac]

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[DewayneP]

Jeff, what makes them successful is that these free checks gets a person in the door with a vehicle that you know already has a problem. A free scan should be nothing more than the Autozone scan or even simpler. For example: "The vehicle computer is showing a code for the Oxygen sensor circuit. If you would like us to diagnose this problem, the charge is $xx.xx" or something to that effect. A code check should be a very simple "code check" and that's all. I would even go as far as to use a simple code reader and not your high dollar scan tool to keep you from going to far into the diagnosis. That way the customer can't say "what does your fancy computer say?" If you are having a hard time getting people through the door then the free code check can get customers in. Just be very careful about how you sell the service and diagnostic if you get that far with a customer. You don't want to be charged with "bait and switch".

[Gonzo]

My gut level response is this type of advertising and the response to it is all because a segment of consumers do not want to pay for or see the value of proper diagnosis. The whole mess has been fueled by Autozone's "FREE" Diagnosis. Unfortunately the public doesn't understand the difference between reading a code and doing diagnosis. Autozone uses the code reading to sell more (often unneeded) parts and shops like Aamco are using it to try to sell more time and repairs. To me neither is much different and both approaches are somewhat deceptive but it is always the service chain or facility that gets the black eye in the media.

 

If we offer free scanning we need to educate the customer in the difference of scanning and retrieving codes and understanding the running issue that is causing that code/codes to appear.

 

 

Here's a new twist on this "free" get it for nothing deals. I've got a fello shop owner (who has only been in business about 4 years) and has a unbelievable following... I contribute that to the "new broom sweeps well" theroy... he is trying a new approach. He is adding a new advertising deal. If you bring in so many non-perishable goods you get a free evac/charge for your air conditioning system. Sounds good, and in fact one of the suppliers is suppling free refrigerant too.

 

I told him I tried the same thing about 10 years ago... it worked well... until you looked over the books in the next following years and found out that none of those "free-be" customers ever came back for any work... ever.

 

I guess you could say.. "your results may vary... but after all these years I'll stick to my old customers and new one as they show up."

 

Call me over the hill... but at least I can see to the bottom... I stopped wondering whats over the next ridge. Been there, done that.

[Jeff]

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[Gonzo]

Dwayne that was gonna be my approach. Use a code reader to pull codes, that would prevent excessive time. Then if a customer balked I could show them the AZ code reader and my "fancy" computer in the hopes they would see the value. Same as a/c check. Walk out to car, hook up gauges, checks belts and pressures. Need service "let me show ya the a/c recovery and recharge machine". Ya want free, thats what ya get. I am still on the Fence but just dont know what to do, really struggling here.

 

 

When these type of people go to their jobs... does their boss come up and say, "I want you to look at this... but I'm not paying for your time here at the office to do this... I just want you to look it now, while you're here at work, where you get paid to be... but I'm not paying you to just look at this, even though you're at work and this is what you do...." Seriously... doubt it...

[xrac]

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[Gonzo]

In my opinion there are two types of people that are primarily attracted to free diagnosis. First, is those people who want something for nothing. They only do the minimum to keep their car moving and no amount of time spent with them converts them into what I consider to be a good customer. Some in this category only want to know what's wrong with their car they don't intend to fix anything. Some only want to know what's wrong with their car so their "regular mechanic" can fix it or so they can fix it. You know the story.

 

The other type of customer is the customer who watches their cash closes either out of habit or necessity. They will pay for reasonable needed repairs they can afford but they are deathly afraid of being taken advantage of and they feel like paying for the diagnosis fits into that category. If you work with the second type you can win their trust and have a long term customer.

 

 

Amen brother xrac... AMen! I entirely, whole heartedly, completely, with out a doubt ... AGREE. Some you'll win over, and those others.... oh them... they make great stories for old Gonzo to write about...

[Jeff]

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[Joe Marconi]

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[Stayfree]

I just joined a couple of days ago and going through older threads I came across this one and felt compelled to comment. This subject is near and dear to me.

 

The shop I currently manage spent many years doing free diagnostics and rarely charged. If they did charge it was at most 1/2 hour with a promise to deduct the charge if the customer had the repairs done.

 

Yeah, that really worked good for them. Customers would bitch about the 1/2 and they owner would take that off whether the customer had the work done or not.

 

When I took over I established a base rate of one hour for diagnostic testing for drivability problems. I wrote it into a menu item that detailed the use of an electronic diagnostic scanner, pin-point electrical testing as necessary, etc. Left open in the narrative that depending on the type of codes or problems discovered additional testing might be required. Did they scream? You bet they did. It is very difficult to retrain customers who have been spoiled. They didn't squawk about laying down 80 grand for a BMW or M-B did they? Nope, gotta have that rolling bling-mobile.

 

I simply explain that before I put several thousand dollars worth of diagnostic equipment on their car operated by a trained technician I have to be comfortable knowing the efforts put forth will be compensated for properly. Several of our customers are doctors so I have no problem looking them dead in the eye, describing the pain in my shoulder and asking them to diagnose it for free right there on the spot. No, they insist I will have to come to their office. Free diagnosis I ask? Of course not. End of discussion and I patiently wait for them to sign the estimate sheet for the diagnostic or turn around and leave. Lawyers? I calmly pick up the phone, call a number (tech in the back cell phone), ask a few questions about the can, a few hmmmm's, and Uh-huh's, then put a "consutation fee on the ticket. (That one works on doctors too.)

 

I explain that while our jobs are different our shop is staffed by professionals with years of training just like their office is. They don't do anything for free and we certainly can't afford to either. Nor should we be expected to. If they start telling me how some other shop doesn't charge for the diagnostic I ask why they are in front of my counter instead of the free guy's. Uhhh, they like our work.

 

Fine, our work involves highly professional diagnostic services for which we charge a fair price.

 

I don't mind getting them all saddled up on what my assistant refers to as the Merry-Go-Round. After a few laps they have the option to get off and leave, or pony up for the requested services.

 

As long as bottom-feeders are willing to do it for nothing it will be an uphill battle. As shops we need to start working professionally and standing our ground. Enough of the cut-throat attitude that just hurts everyone in the business.

 

BTW, the owner screamed for days about me charging for diagnostics when I took over the shop but I explained to him the reasons and told him to simply get out of the way and stop letting customers beat him up. At the end of the first month when I showed him the numbers and he realized how much money he had been leaving on the table he quieted down a lot. When I explained that the mechanics were doing a better job diagnosing now that they were getting paid (flat-rate scale here) and how much it increased sales he got even quieter. When he saw the figures for profit margin, RO averages, etc. he decided I was doing exactly what he had hire me to do. Turn the shop around so we were more professional and making a profit.

 

Free diagnostics? Not here.

 

My opinions are my own but I know lots of shop owners feel pretty much the way I do.

 

Max

[Gonzo]

I couldn't have said it better myself. The intention of the article was to get feedback from across the country as to how everyone feels about diagnostics... I wish there was a way you could put a stop to the free services... the way you handled it with the owner was quite brave ... but effective.

 

we need more guys like you out there,,... great effort, great responce... Gonzo

I just joined a couple of days ago and going through older threads I came across this one and felt compelled to comment. This subject is near and dear to me.

 

The shop I currently manage spent many years doing free diagnostics and rarely charged. If they did charge it was at most 1/2 hour with a promise to deduct the charge if the customer had the repairs done.

 

Yeah, that really worked good for them. Customers would bitch about the 1/2 and they owner would take that off whether the customer had the work done or not.

 

When I took over I established a base rate of one hour for diagnostic testing for drivability problems. I wrote it into a menu item that detailed the use of an electronic diagnostic scanner, pin-point electrical testing as necessary, etc. Left open in the narrative that depending on the type of codes or problems discovered additional testing might be required. Did they scream? You bet they did. It is very difficult to retrain customers who have been spoiled. They didn't squawk about laying down 80 grand for a BMW or M-B did they? Nope, gotta have that rolling bling-mobile.

 

I simply explain that before I put several thousand dollars worth of diagnostic equipment on their car operated by a trained technician I have to be comfortable knowing the efforts put forth will be compensated for properly. Several of our customers are doctors so I have no problem looking them dead in the eye, describing the pain in my shoulder and asking them to diagnose it for free right there on the spot. No, they insist I will have to come to their office. Free diagnosis I ask? Of course not. End of discussion and I patiently wait for them to sign the estimate sheet for the diagnostic or turn around and leave. Lawyers? I calmly pick up the phone, call a number (tech in the back cell phone), ask a few questions about the can, a few hmmmm's, and Uh-huh's, then put a "consutation fee on the ticket. (That one works on doctors too.)

 

I explain that while our jobs are different our shop is staffed by professionals with years of training just like their office is. They don't do anything for free and we certainly can't afford to either. Nor should we be expected to. If they start telling me how some other shop doesn't charge for the diagnostic I ask why they are in front of my counter instead of the free guy's. Uhhh, they like our work.

 

Fine, our work involves highly professional diagnostic services for which we charge a fair price.

 

I don't mind getting them all saddled up on what my assistant refers to as the Merry-Go-Round. After a few laps they have the option to get off and leave, or pony up for the requested services.

 

As long as bottom-feeders are willing to do it for nothing it will be an uphill battle. As shops we need to start working professionally and standing our ground. Enough of the cut-throat attitude that just hurts everyone in the business.

 

BTW, the owner screamed for days about me charging for diagnostics when I took over the shop but I explained to him the reasons and told him to simply get out of the way and stop letting customers beat him up. At the end of the first month when I showed him the numbers and he realized how much money he had been leaving on the table he quieted down a lot. When I explained that the mechanics were doing a better job diagnosing now that they were getting paid (flat-rate scale here) and how much it increased sales he got even quieter. When he saw the figures for profit margin, RO averages, etc. he decided I was doing exactly what he had hire me to do. Turn the shop around so we were more professional and making a profit.

 

Free diagnostics? Not here.

 

My opinions are my own but I know lots of shop owners feel pretty much the way I do.

 

Max

[xrac]

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[Joe Marconi]

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[DewayneP]

I have to admit, I fell into the Free diagnostics pit last week. I had a new customer stop by (by referal, I don't advertise at all). Customer shows up with a vehicle that passed the safety portion of the inspection but failed the emissions portion. For those of you outside NY, the emissions inspection is just a visual check for tampering of emissions components and a simple check of the onboard monitors. If more than 2 monitors (on newer vehicles it's only one) are not completed the emissions test fails (this is done through a NYS computer system, so it can't be fudged). He stops at the shop and tells me about a month ago he had the ses light on, took it to Autozone and they said the oxygen sensor on Bank 1 Sensor 2 was bad. He replaced the oxygen sensor but doesn't drive the truck much so the monitors didn't have a chance to run (O2 heater circuit). He does my patented loop around the block that I have used several times as a drive cycle to get the monitors to set so I can do the inspection. He comes back and I hook up my scanner to see if the monitors have been set. Nope. I tell him, drive it around the next day and bring it back and we'll get it inspected. He comes by the next night and the ses light is on. Tells me it went on when he pulled in his driveway last night. I check the codes: O2 heater circuit bank 1 sensor 2. I say "are you sure you changed the right sensor". "Yep, I changed the one Autozone told me to". OK, slide under the truck, follow the exhaust back from bank 1 (this truck has 2 cats right next to each other). I see the new sensor..... It's not bank 1 it's bank 2!! He says "I'll just put the old sensor from bank 2 in bank 1". Comes back the next day. Couldn't swap the sensors, different connectors. Bought ANOTHER new o2 sensor. "Can you check it now?". I plug in my scanner and low and behold..... Pending code for o2 heater circuit bank1 s2, monitors still not set. I tell him he's got a wiring problem and he needs to do some research online (actually told him to buy a 1 year subscription to Alldata) to see what wires control the heater circuit on that sensor. By this time I'm realizing what an idiot I am for offering to check it before putting it on the NYS computer. At least if I put it on the NYS computer I can charge $11. He goes home, comes back the next day. I ask "did you 'shoot the wires and find the problem?". "Nope, took the new o2 sensor out and took it back to Autozone and got another new one". Great, I know it's not going to pass and now I'm a little ticked off that he didn't listen to me. He says "my buddies at work didn't have a clue. They know it's not the wiring." I send him on his way again, and tell him he needs to 'shoot the wires to make sure the heater is getting voltage. He hasn't returned yet, it's been 2 days. I'm guessing he's 'shooting the wires or is having someone else do it. I would bet, if he had asked me to diagnose the ses light in the first place he would have paid maybe $100 and been done in a day. He's now going on over a month because he doesn't see the value in paying someone to diagnose the problem instead of selling parts. I guess the real winner in this story is Autozone. They sold 2 oxygen sensors that were unnecessary. I think I'm the big loser in this, but it has taught me a valuable lesson: You must (I must), as a shop owner, understand that a diagnostic fee is necessary and can actually save a customer time and money in the long run.

[Dennis R.]

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[Gonzo]

The word "sell" is the key... nothin' is free...

 

Rather than sell diagnostic time sell a level one testing procedure and explain to the customer that these tests can determine which components are still working properly and that you can eliminate them as the possible cause of their problem. This does not then obligate you to find the exact problem and the customer can then take the car if they want with a printout of the tests you have performed for them or authorize a level 2 testing procedure which will delve closer into the items that are not working. Just a different way of approaching the customer. Doctors do not sell diagnostic time they sell tests that determine what is working properly so they can narrow down their final diagnosis.

[Jeff]

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[CARMandP]

We all have seen this in some form or fashion.

 

Reading the codes--Free

Diagnosing the problem--$50

Fixing it right the first time---priceless.