Are you really happy with your Management System?

[Joe Marconi]

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[xrac]

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[JimO]

I have been using Bay-Master for years and I have been very happy. They have made many changes and improvements over the years as our needs have changed. Ability to email estimates and invoices, send canned text messages and mass text messages are a few of the features that help me daily. They always listen and respond to input from the end users (us in the field) which I think is one of their strongest attributes. There may be a shop management system out there that will allow me to write up invoices while tracking my caloric intake and graph the two over time but do I need that? I need a system that allows me to run my business efficiently without having to become a computer programmer or a full time data entry person and Bay-Master has fulfilled all my needs and more.

[Gerald Martin]

Almost 20 years with Mitchell.  We know the program- but wish that Mitchell would demonstrate more ability to innovate.   Using Bolt-On apps alongside helps.   I'm still not quite ready for a management system in the "cloud"...

[xrac]

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[bantar]

On 7/20/2020 at 9:39 PM, Gerald Martin said:

Almost 20 years with Mitchell.  We know the program- but wish that Mitchell would demonstrate more ability to innovate.   Using Bolt-On apps alongside helps.   I'm still not quite ready for a management system in the "cloud"...

It's ok to consider cloud based systems.  Internet availability has come a long way from it's beginnings and is almost as reliable as electricity and in some ways more reliable than electricity when considering concurrent mobile access.  

Cloud infrastructure has two weak points - each end.  Typically, the cloud product is hosted in a professional data center with multiple ingress / egress points, so it has less chance of failure at the origination point.  Then you have the "last mile"... your internet connection.   It is most susceptible to a back-hoe digging or car wreck into a telephone pole or something taking out your connection.   You can get a router that automatically switches from land-line internet to mobile internet upon land-line failure to help alleviate this issue.   Just make sure that you DON'T have, let's say, AT&T, as your land-line AND your mobile carrier.  Maybe AT&T for landline and Sprint, etc. for mobile and you gain excellent last-mile redundancy. 

Finally, there is one more worry point and that is the SMS Service Provider's commitment to uptime.  In other words, how well do they manage their product / service offering?   If they are always on call, able to respond to outages, then you are good.  If you get one with weak back-end support, you could have an extended outage with no local control.   You are at their mercy.   Investigate their support commitment prior to purchase, known as Uptime SLA.   Cloud-based SMS's, due to their unique design, have ways to recover back-end service failures quite quickly that keeps downtime short.   They can survive hardware failures on the fly, whereas, your local hardware failure might stop you for hours or days.  You technically have more control over your local hardware.   But is it better?    For US based companies, also ask who owns your data in the cloud.  Most SMS's automatically grant it to you in your license agreement, but it's not to be assumed.

The SMS that I use is cloud based.  We have had a number of outages, but most were short-lived... 2-15 minutes.  I've had the last mile collapse on me for the entire day and we reverted to mobile internet to survive, but my Credit Card terminal refuses to go mobile for security reasons (it requires a static IP address), so we revert to paper credit card collections when on mobile internet.   AT&T had a fire in the local substation about 1 year back that took our (and most of Dallas) main internet connection down.

Cloud advantages are:   No Hardware to manage.   They backup their data daily or in realtime.   Access from anywhere.   Typically, you get more frequent software updates because it's easier for them to deploy internally vs externally.

Trivia:  I personally backup my SMS data monthly, because:   1) It's good practice, OR 2) I don't trust computers, OR 3) both.   I have Quickbooks running on a single server in my office and don't use the cloud version QB Online.  I can use remote desktop to login if needed, but rarely do.  Sadly, my QB data get's backed up less than it should.   If I do a large batch of work, I'll do a backup, but there's no schedule.   When I do back it up, the files are stored in 3 different locations.    Backup complacency is a good enough reason to consider cloud.  It's someone else's job and likely they've automated it.

Edited July 26, 2020 by bantar
typo

[Sarah Elledge]

I've used CCC One at a body shop and loved it once we figured out it's many complexities. More recently, I've used Shop-Ware at a service shop and really liked it. Not at first, but they've done an excellent job at releasing updates based on what shop owners are asking for and in the past year, it's grown into a great platform.

[willydmax]

I started using Shop-Ware earlier this year and am very happy with them. They are responsive to suggestions and quick to respond if you have issues or questions. I would recommend them. I wouldn’t consider a management program that wasn’t cloud based. I’m an Apple person and so no worries what I log on with it’s going to work. 

[Scott B]

I started using SMS systems back in 88 or so (MFS Management Feedback Systems with Mike Lee). Today, we're running a cloud based system that works! The application allows us to document repairs uniformly which also helps us manage the QA process. We're about 3.5yrs in now and I wish we have switched sooner. Customers are really impressed with the presentation and now with Covid, the experience actually got better. We now have an outside check-in area with a big screen where the customers can see and communicate with us from a distance. Since this is all web based, I can check in on the shop from anywhere. Prior to covid I was traveling quite a bit and would be asked to check in on certain jobs. I would perform research, add notes, wiring diagrams, data etc to a ticket for my technicians to consume later. Let me know if you have any questions about Shop-Ware. 

 

 

[flacvabeach]

In the process of switching our two shops from ROwriter to Protractor.   Short-term pain for, we hope, long-term gain.

[bantar]

5 hours ago, flacvabeach said:

In the process of switching our two shops from ROwriter to Protractor.   Short-term pain for, we hope, long-term gain.

I also use Protractor and I have mastered their custom reporting system, which can be cryptic.  Happy to share tips / tricks if  it would help.   Work that pain out!

[Gerald Martin]

I contacted AMS Protractor for a trial, and frankly I see some real potential, and the cloud part isn't as "scary" as I thought.   The service packages concept (Intelligent Canned Jobs) seems to be well thought out.    Sadly, Bolt-On Technology doesn't have an integration for them, yet.

One thing we rely on is a caller ID function with Bolt-On/Mitchell.   Is this available with protractor.net? 

One of the integrated DVI's we're looking at is autotext.me    Anyone here using them or have experiences to share?  Specifically, a workflow that's using Protractor and Autotext.me?

Is there any other combination that would represent true progress from what we have now with M1/Bolt-On?

Gerald

[lmcca]

On 7/12/2020 at 8:07 PM, xrac said:

I am looking at this one and considering changing. It seems to be system of choice with many of the Facebook group.

 

https://www.tekmetric.com/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=90611462&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8EaPf_z-A-CkXytJQzHfTLZ5wmNd6PaLNR4j_KZro3OdDI2kp_ir2SGiUS-JmxrMnaaJHC-8m-KJrtG-Bzdn76tEtFww&utm_content=90611462&utm_source=hs_email

we have tekmetric and the really bad part is they use MOTOR for the labor guide and it is absolutely horrible.  Labor times are really low compared to mitchell and missing info on vehicles and some vehicles it has no labor information whatsoever. We use XLPARTS mainly which offers mitchell labor guide lookup while you search for parts.  Aside from that we really like the program.

[Robbie@Jewell]

I'm using the latest version of RO Writer, and it's absolutely horrible.  Imagine if someone designed a car with every single feature you could possibly imagine, but it would only go 20 mph and it broke down every single week.  That's what using RO Writer is like.   It's a very good software when it works, but it's always slow and is full of bugs.  From what I understand, they're still using a Microsoft Access database system from the 90's.  

Edited September 8, 2020 by [email protected]

[Southards]

11 years ago I moved from rock and chisel to Tabs Autofluent.  It's awesome and easy. About 5 years into it I purchased the software and now just pay $73 a month for all the updates and any assistance I ever need.  The staff is great and can talk me through an issue or remotely hands on fix or show me what I need help with. I highly recommend

[QuandAns42]

On 9/20/2020 at 1:27 PM, Southards said:

11 years ago I moved from rock and chisel to Tabs Autofluent.  It's awesome and easy. About 5 years into it I purchased the software and now just pay $73 a month for all the updates and any assistance I ever need.  The staff is great and can talk me through an issue or remotely hands on fix or show me what I need help with. I highly recommend

Good to know!  We've looked at this one, but haven't pulled the trigger.  How's customer service in their off hours, if you've needed it?  That's been my concern with a West coast based service.

[Gundy's]

We were using Alldata, but I wasn't happy with it, took too long to create R/O's, look up info, etc. We are now moving to Mitchell1 in the cloud and from what I've seen so far, I'm impressed. 

[TheTrustedMechanic]

On 9/20/2020 at 1:27 PM, Southards said:

11 years ago I moved from rock and chisel to Tabs Autofluent.  It's awesome and easy. About 5 years into it I purchased the software and now just pay $73 a month for all the updates and any assistance I ever need.  The staff is great and can talk me through an issue or remotely hands on fix or show me what I need help with. I highly recommend

I looked into Tabs AutoFluent a couple years ago and was highly impressed.  I even signed up and bought the data conversion service.  However I would not use the system or "play around" with their demo database until my data was converted and I could use my own data.  The two could not be merged.  So a week from the expiration of my trial period I was told my data still wasn't being worked on to be converted.  I gave them an ultimatum, either extend my trial period starting on the date my data was delivered to me to use in their system or refund my money.  They refunded my money.  I was disappointed but I was not going to run dual systems or double enter my R.O.s.  If I was going to use and "try" AutoFluent I was going to do it live and for real, adding to my exisiting customer database not losing all of it once the past data was finally converted.

 

I was really excited at the prospect of what they promised they could do.  But they didn't deliver in a way that I could actually try it out in real life.

[TheTrustedMechanic]

I always wonder why people are so eager to sacrifice so much for the new and shiny.  I acknowledge that we have little privacy anymore.  But it is exactly this attitude of ANYTHING for that shiny new bauble or "cheaper" option.  But with cloud systems

• you do NOT own the data, you create it and the cloud server company owns it and licenses you access to it.
• the server owner has the legal right to mine any data on their servers anytime they want for any reason they want and use/sell it anyway they want. 
• large data centers are a far bigger target for DNS or ransom attacks than your local network.

A local installation, meaning on your machines, all of that data is yours, only yours and can only be used by your permission.  And don't think for one minute that that end user license agreement or "privacy" policy that you agreed to but never read protects you, your customers or in any way stands up for your interests over the server owner.  This is not conspiracy theory, this is fact and law.  I'll keep my SMS off the cloud.  The only way it fails is if my machine fails or the electricity goes out which is true with the cloud as well.  Whereas if your server farm is hit with ransom ware, guess what Bunky, your data is not available and may never be.  Do ahead, keep thinking the convenience is the only aspect, that there is no downside, but ask Jasper or Caterpillar or any of the other mega-corps or municipalities or hospitals that get hit with ransom ware attacks about the downsides.  That big server farm is a more lucrative target than a 1 or 2 or 5 or 30 location repair shop's IT.

[bantar]

@TheTrustedMechanic   You raise valid concerns.  I believe everyone should make their SMS decisions with these concerns (Data security, ownership and privacy) front and center.   

This is a complex topic and hard to describe succinctly, but I'll try.   Not really possible to be succinct, so...

Data Ownership and Privacy  are contractual which are easily addressed if the SMS creator agrees.    One must ask questions and verify that the contract matches the answers given.   I use a cloud-based SMS. I own my data.  I am not subject to data mining.  

Data Security is actually easier these days than you believe.   I can go into this in great detail, but will try to highlight some of the techniques employed.   Cloud computing has fundamentally rearranged how software is deployed and scaled.  It's completely different from the traditional client-server model of yesterday.   In simplest terms, the software is deployed thru virtual servers.   A single computer can host one or more virtual servers.  This is a critical concept.  A virtual server allows all software running in a virtual server to be ISOLATED from software running in another virtual server on the same machine.   So, for instance, a virus could be running on the same computer in one virtual server and it would not impact the other virtual servers.   A data center hosts many clients and one can be careless and get infected while the other is Professional and always remains isolated from others that share the same data center and same server even.   Isolation created by virtual servers is a core security feature.

If the hardware running your virtual server fails, the data center spins up a new virtual server on a different piece of hardware.   Scaling of cloud computing works the same.  Multiple virtual server software instances are replicated to meet a static load or scaled dynamically to meet a flexing client demand.   It's easy to scale.   In many cases scaling is automated.... only limited by how much you want to pay for each instance.  You can even virtualize your server software across multiple data centers (e.g. East Coast and West Coast).   Basically server software is now both disposable and easily recreatable all thru automation.   The data is actually stored in a Database which is also scalable, recreateable and only accepts secured connections from known server instances.   There is a whole world of backups, database replication, etc that make the super-critical data safe.

Production Servers vs Development Servers - The software that executes your SMS is in a production data center and likely only accepts trusted connections from clients.  No outside connections are possible, although the SMS creator can push new instances (software updates) to production servers.    By only allowing pre-defined application transactions, at most a crook can do is to normal SMS operations (create WO, update POs, etc).   Ransomware cannot enter thru these secured communication channels.  A crook would have a much easier time to break into your shop and use your local computers to create new WO's, update POs, etc.     The concept of attacking a "large data center" is largely meaningless.  You have to attack each and every Virtual Server Instance and a large data center would have 100,000's of these.  The software is placed on the production server at release time.  The SMS vendor develops software in-house (on a development server) and then publishes software (sends it to the production server) to the cloud.    Except for publishing, they do not touch productions servers.  They remain isolated.

Database:   So, we've established that the server hardware is unimportant, the virtual servers are unimportant, the software instances running on these virtual servers are unimportant because of redundancy and replication.  The most critical component is your data.  And guess what, databases have been around for 50 years longer than cloud computing.  Definitely not "shiny".  Databases have varying levels of backups from every transaction being recreateable to a bit less.  So, I'm not going to dwelve into this well-established system. 

Backups... Backups.... Backups....   This is critical and will vary from vendor to vendor.  You'll want to know what they are doing with backups.  We want frequent backups as well as off-site storage.   If your Data Center blows up, at least your data is safely stored off site.  It can be reloaded onto virtual servers in your new not-yet-blowed-up data center.    I know that my data is backed up way better than it would be if I managed my own backups.   I am a backup fanatic and I often fall prey to being too busy to do what needs to be done.   And daily off-site backups?  Yet one more task to forget.   Of course, some of this can be automated even with local servers at a monthly cost.

What is said above is what you would expect a Professional Software Development shop to do.  Can they create software that is subject to Ransom Ware attacks?   Yes, but I would remove the word "Professional" from their description.   In your due-diligence of system selection, ask about their production deployment and data integrity. 

Believe me, as well as I understand computers and software, I'm not a trusting fool.   I'm always the last to adopt new technology because we always learn something new with technology advances.   I do believe that Cloud Computing SMS's safe to consider with some due-diligence required on your part.   Security is never fool-proof.  Instead, it is a series of layers of security features that provide protection.

I'm sure that @CAR_AutoReports can add to this.

Once you pick the right provider, the biggest concern with Cloud Computing remains with "the last mile".   That is, the stability of your internet connection and worrying if the next car crash into a telephone pole (or back hoe). will take out your internet cabling.   Lack of internet is a serious problem with Cloud Computing.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by bantar
corrected sentence

[CAR_AutoReports]

I think @bantar touches on everything that matters about data in this new world we live in. 

The most services you are using in today's business world, the more people have your data. 

So it's really not just your SMS, it's your SMS and everything it enables for you. 

Backups are important, but remembering that having things your way, always comes at a cost.

 

What's happiness in a Management platform?  Only you can decide.  Somethings have trade-offs others are "must have".

 

Every platform comes at a sacrifice of time, cost and how much data do I want to share with other platforms and companies.

 

If you want to consider new software, you really have to decide on how you want to run your business. 

Then start reading up on the available options and understand what each enables or doesn't.

That's where happiness lies.

[Grace Automotive]

We use Mitchell ProDemand for labor times, and specs and such.

However, for our SMS we use Scott Systems "MaxxTraxx" SMS....and absolutely love it.

It checks all the boxes that bantar touched on above, and it's about as full featured as any system I've ever seen.

It takes car of quotes, invoices, payroll, inventory, book keeping, appointments, CRM, and much much more.

It integrates with all my parts vendors seamlessly. When building a quote it goes to their site, checks inventory and pricing, and one click puts it into my quote with my cost stored and a default markup (which I can easily change) for the retail price that shows up on the RO/Invoice. 

It automatically tracks GP (and all other profit metrics) per RO and one click shows me exactly how much I'm making on each individual RO in raw dollars and cents as well as GP%. (in addition to all the other reports available for tracking all other metrics for any time frame.

When the job is sold, one more click orders the part, and when the part arrives and I receive the invoice into my system it automatically updates my inventory.

There are many many other features built into it that I have barely scratched the surface.  The appointments/Status screen is clean and easy to see at a glance what's going on with each vehicle currently in your shop or on it's way. 

Can send text messages, emails including bulk ones from within the application. 

It allows you to build "kits" for common jobs, that makes it REALLY fast to build a full featured quote.

You simply choose the kit, and then substitute in the actual labor times and parts costs for that particular vehicle.