Reflashing

[nge]

Hey all,

I am looking into the RAP service (remote assist program) for reflashing and programming pcms and modules and weighing my options.  We currently don't have the equipment to reflash and typically sub those jobs out to the dealer. I was wondering how do you all charge for reflash services?  I have generally seen the out the door price around $200 which would be about 2hrs bill time for us but wanted to see how that stacks up.

Also in the event there are repairs done that require the reflash are you charging the full reflash fee in addition to the parts and labor time or do you discount the reflash fee?

Thanks!

[AndersonAuto]

There are several ways to go. I think the RAP reflash technology is a bit young and they're having trouble with it. I got the DrewTech RAP box a while ago, and it's pretty limited on what it can do. They also bricked a PCM on a ford van. They stood behind it and bought a new PCM, but it put my customer out for a couple days waiting for the new PCM and for DrewTech to send us the Rotunda tool to program it. I'm confident they'll fix this issue, but it's not fixed yet.

You can get a Snap On j-box for reasonable money, and a cheap laptop will run it. I think my laptop still has a "Made for Windows XP" sticker on it. The real problem is that you need to figure out how many flashes you do, and what the vehicle mix is. I've found that even though we see 400+ vehicles a month, we only do about 5-6 flashes a month. Spread that among lots of makes, and 6 technicians, and none of the techs will get any good at doing any of them, resulting in spending way too much time on them. Plus it seems that the software always needs to be updated, wasting another half hour before the flash can start.

In short, it's a PITA. But, much like having an alignment rack, it's more convenience for the shop than taking (or towing) the car to another shop to get it done.

BTW, yes, we charge full boat for it no matter what else we do.

[skm]

if a vehicle needs a reflash or a part is going to need programming and I know it is something I am unable to do I send them to the dealer. I find that being straight up with the customer they will continue to use you for all their needs.. A job lost to the dealer because it may not be cost effective to you may lead to a customer that has more confidence in your for being completely honest with them.. I tell them It is not cost or time effective for me to purchase equipment to do the flashing and as stated above some only take a one time flash screw that up and you have to buy a new module or ecm, easier to let the big guys (dealers) with the money to make those repairs. That way you aren't out money and time , the bottom line is we want to make more money than we spend in a timely manner 😉 I had a Kia forte the other day the bcm was bad (would not release the shift interlock ) I did a quick look through my scanner to see if I could do the programming , but didn't see it.. On some models you can copy the old bcm if you can communicate with it and then install the new one and program. Instead of taking any chances I told the guy the problem he was happy , been several places that installed new brake light switch , new solenoid etc. if they had just done some bidirectional communications and checked some very simple wiring (after removing the center console everything is right there including the bcm) they could of made the correct diagnosis. He paid for the diagnostic time agreed upon when he first brought the car in and said he would like to use me for his other repairs. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by skm

[hasoon2000]

I do mobile programming on the side for shops and small dealers.

The good thing about have some of this equipment is that it also allows you to do dealer-level diagnostics, depending on the make.

I can't think of it from the top of my head, but I have around 8 - 10 different scanners, for different makes/purposes.

Again, depending on the make, you may be limited in what you can flash.

For example, Nissan allows you to only to powertrain modules with their flashing software. On the other hand, GM allows you to reflash any module your heart desires. GM also has their dealer software (GDS2/Tech2Win) available for shops to use, with a paid subscription.

Whether it's a full reflash or just a software update, I charge a full fee. The subscriptions that I pay stay the same, so I can't discount the fee for a tiny update.

If anyone has questions or would like to get into flashing, feel free to message me.

[stvstbsvc]

I took a class on this at Automechanika and came home all excited and ready to get a RAP Machine and get going and be able to fix a few more cars.  Sitting in class listening to Mr. Truglia I had a certain Subaru Forester in mind to reflash for a P0420 (she is ready to pay us to replace the cat).  Apparently there is often a flash for P0420's BUT there doesn't appear to be a flash available for this car.  And so now I am back on the fence wondering again if the module we need flashed very 4 months or so is enough to make it worthwhile.  We have a mobile flash person and it has been working fine that way.  THANKS for the thread = plan on watching...

[hasoon2000]

1 minute ago, stvstbsvc said:

I took a class on this at Automechanika and came home all excited and ready to get a RAP Machine and get going and be able to fix a few more cars.  Sitting in class listening to Mr. Truglia I had a certain Subaru Forester in mind to reflash for a P0420 (she is ready to pay us to replace the cat).  Apparently there is often a flash for P0420's BUT there doesn't appear to be a flash available for this car.  And so now I am back on the fence wondering again if the module we need flashed very 4 months or so is enough to make it worthwhile.  We have a mobile flash person and it has been working fine that way.  THANKS for the thread = plan on watching...

what year and model is the Subaru? Engine size? I'll check my Subaru software and see if there's an update for P0420 for you.

[stvstbsvc]

And just to put a fork in my part of this story; Thank-you for the look-up on my customer's Subaru.  There is no reflash for a P0420 on her car and I sat in class getting all excited for nothing!!!  And now I (and my shop) are back to square one.

[Wheelingauto]

On 7/29/2017 at 6:38 PM, skm said:

if a vehicle needs a reflash or a part is going to need programming and I know it is something I am unable to do I send them to the dealer. I find that being straight up with the customer they will continue to use you for all their needs.. A job lost to the dealer because it may not be cost effective to you may lead to a customer that has more confidence in your for being completely honest with them.. I tell them It is not cost or time effective for me to purchase equipment to do the flashing and as stated above some only take a one time flash screw that up and you have to buy a new module or ecm, easier to let the big guys (dealers) with the money to make those repairs. That way you aren't out money and time , the bottom line is we want to make more money than we spend in a timely manner  I had a Kia forte the other day the bcm was bad (would not release the shift interlock ) I did a quick look through my scanner to see if I could do the programming , but didn't see it.. On some models you can copy the old bcm if you can communicate with it and then install the new one and program. Instead of taking any chances I told the guy the problem he was happy , been several places that installed new brake light switch , new solenoid etc. if they had just done some bidirectional communications and checked some very simple wiring (after removing the center console everything is right there including the bcm) they could of made the correct diagnosis. He paid for the diagnostic time agreed upon when he first brought the car in and said he would like to use me for his other repairs. 

I feel there are many arguments of why IMO this is a poor long term solution. I am in the big city so unlike smaller markets where each has his niche here if given a chance, there are a lot who will take your lunch and eat it without care.

1) I wholeheartedly agree with you to be honest and up front with customers.

What happens when you send customer to dealer? Does the customer come in and request reflash? If so, what happens if it does not solve problem? Does the dealer want to diag the problem first? Is the customer prepared to pay again? Or do you not charge diag time since you cant solve problem?

Let's say dealer does diag, comes up with different outcome and it fixes the car, how does that reflect on your company?

My first solution is to sub it to the dealer. Never send a customer to another for service, they might just find that the service is better and never return. If you think the only reason they come to you is cheaper you have little to offer on that alone.

If you desire to discuss this further the second part is the technology side as well. To what level is the technical capability? HOw will it keep up if you dont learn to do what is becoming more and more run of the mill?

[skm]

wheelingauto,  I have been in the business for a long time, I am not worried about losing a customer to the dealership. In fact most not all but most people don't like the dealership... Now as far as the wrong diagnosis yes that may be possible, but I am pretty good at what I do and am very certain of a diagnostics before I ever contact a customer. There is far more fear in losing customers to carp shops and street mechanics than to a dealership... As far as the technology side, I keep very up to date on things.. buying equipment and subscriptions to reflash at this time is going to be a waste of money.. Things are going telematic, so there will be no need for reflashing equipment probably sooner than you think...