acceptable brake line repair?

[skm]

I was doing a state inspection on a ford F150 this morning and I came across this. For Inspection we look for damage lines, copper lines, lines that are rusted and pitted, and compression fittings. In my 25 years inspecting I have failed tons of brake lines but never come a cross a repair like this. WOW !! Needless to say I wrote DO NOT DRIVE TRUCK UNSAFE ! on his inspection report and his receipt . Anyone seen this one before??

[dfrisby]

Had a truck in my shop a month or two ago the customer just wanted line spliced in where it was leaking. We replaced the whole line. There had to have been at least 16 compression fittings on that one brake line from previous repairs.

 

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[xrac]

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[alfredauto]

Az sells rolls of copper brake line now. I was taught its a no-go, but the sales guy says its dot approved. I'll stick with coated steel.

[skm]

Az sells rolls of copper brake line now. I was taught its a no-go, but the sales guy says its dot approved. I'll stick with coated steel.

Here it is illegal any copper it is too soft, even if it is dot approved just like the hyper white (blue hued) headlights they are dot approved . Here it is what ever your car came with has to be there (factory). Of course every time you get a different state trooper they change they way they want thing done, We have a box to check for fog or aux lighting and aim, I cross the box off if the car does not have fog lights. The new trooper said all cars have aux lights I argued with him saying aux lights are exterior additional lighting like baha lights etc. He said " what about the dome light" I asked him how you check the height and aim of it he just looked at me, then I asked him "isn't it illegal to drive at night with your dome light on' ? he said yes so how could it be an aux light? He wants it checked LOL.. He also wanted us to write down the tire size and temp/speed rating of the tire. I asked him what kind of sense does that make you can't fail a tire for a different rating. If you fail a tire cause it is bad they get a new tire and it is not the same temp rating you can't fail it. He replied that is correct, okay so why do need to write it down? no reply. AS long as they are the same size on the axle and not deviated by more than 1 size per axle it is fine he agreed but still wants the tire size . It is a royal pain in the ass

Edited October 21, 2015 by skm

[alfredauto]

In NY a person can legally pass inspection, get a sticker, and get ticketed by a cop for equipment violations as soon as they pull out of the driveway. Its really rediculous the traffic code and vehicle safety regulations don't match.

 

For example, there is no fail item for exhaust. It is not checked except for the presence of a catalytic converter. But a loose gas cap will sideline that vehicle.

[CMillet86]

The Brake line that Autozone and Advance sells isn't a pure copper, it's a Nickel copper mix. I believe some of the european manufactures use it standard.

[ncautoshop]

The Brake line that Autozone and Advance sells isn't a pure copper, it's a Nickel copper mix. I believe some of the european manufactures use it standard.

Exactly. Not an issue at all using it! Been using it here for years!

 

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[CMillet86]

Exactly. Not an issue at all using it! Been using it here for years!

 

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Much easier to work with also.

[ncautoshop]

Once you bend and flare nicopp once you'll never use steel again!

 

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[skm]

Once you bend and flare nicopp once you'll never use steel again!

 

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well easiest isn't always the best way.. It may be fine, I for one don't know since it is not approved in my state it is a failure as far as inspections go. I for one like the old steel lines at least I know that it is strong and safe even if it takes a little more effort to bend and flare. At least I have the piece of mind knowing that the customers brake line I just put on is strong and safe. Like I said I am not bashing it, but I'm not using it either. If it is something I wouldn't use on my own car I'm not using it on a customers car that is the way I look at it.

Edited October 28, 2015 by skm

[CMillet86]

Thats odd that it's a failure, it says it's DOT approved. Meets all standards for brake lines.

 

• NiCopp® Does Not Rust or Corrode
• DOT Approved for Hydraulic Brake Systems
• Bends 58% Easier than Steel Tubing
• Available in Coils of 25', 50', and 100'
• Finished Lines Available for Domestic & Import
• Black Oxide Fittings 2X Corrosion Resistance

NiCopp® lines and tubing meet the following specifications:
SAEJ1047
ISO 4038
SAEJ1650
DIN 74234
BS2871

[stowintegrity]

We use the Nickel/Copper Alloy tubing in 3/16" & 1/4" for all our brake line replacements. As others have mentioned, I don't think we're talking about straight copper tubing, like the kind you might still find in your mom & pop hardware store. The alloy lines bring together the strength of steel, and the "corrosion resistant" copper.

 

Being in the NE, we stock 300' of the 3/16" line, and often replace 40 feet or more at a time on the vehicles we see. Typically if there's a line that's rusted & busted, there are other lines in the system that are rusted enough to be able to honestly suggest more linear feet be replaced at the same time.

 

Any reason anyone can tell me that I need to do more research on this? I found a link to a page that has a TON of technical data on the manufacture/specs for some different types of tubing. I found it to be interesting, so maybe some of you will, also.

 

Enjoy.

 

http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/brake-tube/brake.html

[skm]

Thats odd that it's a failure, it says it's DOT approved. Meets all standards for brake lines.

 

• NiCopp® Does Not Rust or Corrode

• DOT Approved for Hydraulic Brake Systems

• Bends 58% Easier than Steel Tubing

• Available in Coils of 25', 50', and 100'

• Finished Lines Available for Domestic & Import

• Black Oxide Fittings 2X Corrosion Resistance

NiCopp® lines and tubing meet the following specifications:

SAEJ1047

ISO 4038

SAEJ1650

DIN 74234

BS2871

 

 

We use the Nickel/Copper Alloy tubing in 3/16" & 1/4" for all our brake line replacements. As others have mentioned, I don't think we're talking about straight copper tubing, like the kind you might still find in your mom & pop hardware store. The alloy lines bring together the strength of steel, and the "corrosion resistant" copper.

 

Being in the NE, we stock 300' of the 3/16" line, and often replace 40 feet or more at a time on the vehicles we see. Typically if there's a line that's rusted & busted, there are other lines in the system that are rusted enough to be able to honestly suggest more linear feet be replaced at the same time.

 

Any reason anyone can tell me that I need to do more research on this? I found a link to a page that has a TON of technical data on the manufacture/specs for some different types of tubing. I found it to be interesting, so maybe some of you will, also.

 

Enjoy.

 

http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/brake-tube/brake.html

very interesting.. well we have to keep failing it until an amendment is made to the inspection rules and regulations. Who knows maybe one is in the works. Maybe I spoke too soon, I may talk with the state trooper and see what he says. I may get a piece of it and see how easily it is worked and flared . May give it a try.. thanks for the information

[xrac]

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[ncautoshop]

 

 

very interesting.. well we have to keep failing it until an amendment is made to the inspection rules and regulations. Who knows maybe one is in the works. Maybe I spoke too soon, I may talk with the state trooper and see what he says. I may get a piece of it and see how easily it is worked and flared . May give it a try.. thanks for the information

we've been using it for quite a while, and for a portion of that time we were using steel line as well. Replaced about 80% of those steel lines already. Copper is still going strong.

 

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[alfredauto]

I'm not opposed to the nickel/copper lines, and I'm sure they are superior, but inspection guidelines in NY say no copper lines. If it looks like copper it flunks. So I don't use it.

[xrac]

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[skm]

I'm not opposed to the nickel/copper lines, and I'm sure they are superior, but inspection guidelines in NY say no copper lines. If it looks like copper it flunks. So I don't use it.

Same here . looks like copper it fails. As i stated before until a amendment is made to the inspection "book" it fails

[dfrisby]

Probably a situation where technology has outstripped the regulations.

I've used both. Ni-cop is better. We use steel on the junkers that aren't likely to survive another year anyways. Seems I've had a run of customers just hoping to squeeze one or two more years out before replacing their vehicle. Cost of ni-cop is significantly more.

 

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[Mario]

It is not copper, it is an alloy and 100x better (literally) than steel. It will not rust out, it is NY legal. You have to reject soft copper tubing for brake lines, not Nicop. Local company in Akron Ohio sur&r has been making this stuff for over a decade. It's great, steel lines in the rust belt I have seen rust out again within 3 winters

 

http://www.gnyada.com/files/pages/dealers/newsletter/march2012/mar2012.pdf

 

Page 5-7 has the law

[stowintegrity]

Typically how do you pruce a steel brake line repair. How do you estimate the time? We often will just give a range?

 

Xrac,

Since this is the kind of repair that you'll rarely see described in a Labor Guide, we had to develop a process for estimating that worked for us, regardless of which of our technicians ended up doing the repair. Depending on the person performing the inspection, however, we've left this kind of estimate "open" to the interpretation of the tech's suggestions based on knowing the individual's history. (Some techs will estimate linear footage of line more liberally, others might more conservatively think they can get the job done faster than the others in the bays, etc...)

 

Our techs are responsible for identifying a failed line, and then "estimating" three things:

1. The time they think it will take them to replace the line.

2. The number of linear feet of line they'll need.

3. The number of "fittings" they'll need to replace.

 

We generally never reinstall an existing fitting, and although there are sometimes significant cost differences from one fitting style to another, it generally matters little in the grand scheme of things. If we believe the tech is one of the guys that is generally "spot on" with what he'll need, we'll write the estimate, and then bump the total dollar amount by 10%. (Generally adding it to the labor time)

 

We charge a minimum of 1 hour of labor regardless of how short the line is, but as we generally end up suggesting the replacement of multiple lines during the same visit, when our customers agree to allow us to do that, it always rounds downward in the customer's favor with each additional line. For example, one line may be an hour on the estimate, but two relatively shorter lines may be 1.7 hours, and three lines may be 2.4, etc.

 

There is no labor guide to follow on a make/model basis, and if ONE line has rusted & failed...you can bet that the rest of the lines are at least VERY rusty. We won't insist on the replacement of additional (non-failed, but rusty) lines unless we believe (by even a simple visual examination) the structural integrity of the lines are compromised. There's lots of pictures available online of brake lines with varying degrees of compromise....we found pictures of Bad, Worse, and Worst, and have diagrams in the office to exemplify the relative state of decay to our customers.

 

We learned this approach once we grew tired of having to call customers and tell them that a second line burst during the brake bleeding procedure, and got tired of being accused of breaking their cars by people who felt ambushed. Now - we tell them, "This one's broke. That one's likely to go soon, and this other one is very rusty. To take care of them all and make sure your car is safe, it'll be $XX out the door"

 

Anyone that asks about "just fixing the one line" is warned of what may happen during service, and asked to sign a disclaimer when they pick up the car, then given an estimate for the one line. Since the estimate is writeen to make the 2nd, 3rd, & additional lines MUCH more cost effective to fix....sometimes telling them, the cost difference serves to sell the whole job anyway.

 

So an hour of labor, roughly $3 a foot for the line, and $4-$5 per fitting. Brake line replacement is a "labor job", meaning most of the associated cost is in twhat it takes to ask a professional to make sure it's done right, and the car is safe.

 

One last thought...

 

If someone presents a vehicle to us and says that the pedal just went to the floor, and we discover rusty brake lines, one that's failed: Typically this customer will be grateful that they're not looking at a job that costs them $750 - $1200. The dollar amount to get you back on the road with the assurance that your brake lines are in good shape for $250 - $400? What are you going to do...go buy another car?

 

Just one man's take on it.

(And hey...I'm wrong as often as the next guy.)

[xrac]

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[alfredauto]

The average RO for brake line repair (towed in, no brakes) is around $700. Changing brake lines sucks, no doubt, but overall a couple hours fixes the lines and then another couple hours of gravy work to replace calipers or wheel cylinders when the bleeders are rusted off makes up for it.

 

The lines aren't hard to replace, but getting covered in rust and brake fluid is inevitable and we all prefer to not get all oily during the day. There's really no way to stay clean, and I find brake fluid just plain nasty.

[ScottyP]

The average RO for brake line repair (towed in, no brakes) is around $700. Changing brake lines sucks, no doubt, but overall a couple hours fixes the lines and then another couple hours of gravy work to replace calipers or wheel cylinders when the bleeders are rusted off makes up for it.

 

The lines aren't hard to replace, but getting covered in rust and brake fluid is inevitable and we all prefer to not get all oily during the day. There's really no way to stay clean, and I find brake fluid just plain nasty.

Is that to replace all lines? I do a ton of brake line replacements and that would be my average cost to replace all lines on a vehicle. Chevy pickups I do all the time, cost is $750 to replace all lines with new fittings, more if we replace hoses and or other parts. NICOPP is the shit! Haven't used steel in years and never will, not even on a junker. And if you don't have a hydraulic flaring tool get one.

[phynny]

Ni-cop for president!

[ncautoshop]

Is that to replace all lines? I do a ton of brake line replacements and that would be my average cost to replace all lines on a vehicle. Chevy pickups I do all the time, cost is $750 to replace all lines with new fittings, more if we replace hoses and or other parts. NICOPP is the shit! Haven't used steel in years and never will, not even on a junker. And if you don't have a hydraulic flaring tool get one.

I really like the mastercool hydraulic flare tool I have but I've seen a really nice one they have at Eastwood!

 

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[CMillet86]

The Mastercool tool has been worth every penny.

[alfredauto]

I've got the hyd. Tool, but its faster to just stock and use the pre made lines. Cost wise its a wash.

[AJFA]

Ni-copp tubing & Mastercool hydraulic tool = $600.00 to $900.00 per job or more & it keeps my guys busy all day, Yea for both of us!

I luv the rust belt! NY winters are the best.

 

Dave

[alfredauto]

I'm in western NY state. Cars don't last 10 years between the potholes, rust, deer, and +100 to -30 temps. Figure in 150 mile round trip to the mall and average 50 mile commute and its a great place to be a mechanic. Not a good place to be a car or human but business is good.

[LynxStarAuto]

Wow I have never seen a jerry rig of that nature on such an important system of the vehicle. Not even in my area where we don't even have inspections. Out here you see a lot of the compression fittings used as a repair method. Simply because it is quick, easy, and cheap. Which is still very wrong. Nobody wants to invest in flaring tools and such. These jobs are not as common out here as it is up in the NE area.

[skm]

Wow I have never seen a jerry rig of that nature on such an important system of the vehicle. Not even in my area where we don't even have inspections. Out here you see a lot of the compression fittings used as a repair method. Simply because it is quick, easy, and cheap. Which is still very wrong. Nobody wants to invest in flaring tools and such. These jobs are not as common out here as it is up in the NE area.

I hadn't either till I came across this.. Here it is illegal to use compression fittings.. It is funny I use a manual flaring tool and yes it is a pain to loosen the clamp once you crunch down on the line. Almost every "tech" that has come through the shop I have had to show how to use a flare tool. I guess people just really don't care or know the laws, one or the other

[ncautoshop]

I hadn't either till I came across this.. Here it is illegal to use compression fittings.. It is funny I use a manual flaring tool and yes it is a pain to loosen the clamp once you crunch down on the line. Almost every "tech" that has come through the shop I have had to show how to use a flare tool. I guess people just really don't care or know the laws, one or the other

Look into the mastercool or the new eastwood. Both will make you laugh when people use the old style flare tool!

 

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[dfrisby]

I have the mastercool. Worth every penny. We hated brake line repairs till we got it. Now we just dislike them.

[stowintegrity]

We had a customer bring in his Chevy truck today with a mushy brake pedal. After showing him the photos of some of his brake components along with the general level of decay of several of his brake lines (and fuel lines), he indicated that he very much enjoyed the vehicle, and he wanted to keep it on the road for many more years to come.

 

On that note and in layman's terms, I explained to him that I would be happy to offer him service to the degree that he was comfortable, especially since this is a vehicle he is likely to continue to invest money into. I told him I wasn't in the habit of pressuring our customers to authorize any serivce they didn't feel comfortable with, even in cases like his where I could quite legitimately suggest much more work than just what we saw as "failed" this very moment.

 

He appreciated my candor, and asked me what I would do if this was my personal vehicle, and I wanted to "restore performance" and "keep the vehicle safe on the road" for a long time to come.

 

I hesitated as I thought about all of you...then I put together an estimate for some work.

 

Realizing this is a vehicle the man truly loved, with over 200,000 miles on it, and seeing both hydraulic and friction parts decaying from time and the elements, I asked him if it would be alright if I put together an estimate for the entire replacement of his brake system, with the exception of his ABS Control Module (EBCM), and then we could discuss it, and together whittle it down to the nature and size of investment he would like to make. He was delighted with the approach.

 

The estimate included replacement of all the calipers, brackets, pads, rotors, hardware, hoses, the master cylinder, more than a dozen brake line fittings, and an estimated 60' of line (NiCop, of course). Additionally, we had to take measures not to allow air into the control module, and added time for a brake fluid exchange & bleeding. On top of all that, I let him know that our company offered an extended warranty on many of the parts, which upgraded any parts that had a performance line available to us, by at least doubling the time/mileage periods. As a part of describing the service to him, I indicated that we would not normally remove the existing lines, but that in most cases, the new lines would be run parallel to the existing ones.

 

For those of you not in the cold, wintery north, pulling old lines out to replace them is like poking a bear, and I explained that although it wouldn't affect performance, safety, or warranties, I mention it as a cosmetic concern only. He asked me to add the replacement of the fuel lines to his estimate as well, as he said that the photos I showed him gave a truly graphic representation of how badly the elements & road salt had affected everything underneath the truck, and he didn't see the point of taking any chances or asking us to "be creative" in how the lines were run, as it wouldn't change the relative state of decay of the fuel lines if we did so. So - to his estimate, I added an estimated 40' of fuel line, a dozen more fittings, some "quick connects" to nylon line adapters, and a new in-line fuel filter for good measure.

 

His service estimate for the above was over $2800. I asked him where he wanted to begin, and invited him to examine the various components in question, if he needed clarification on their health as assessed by a visual examination only. He abruptly said, "Tony, there's no need for that. I told my wife that if I could restore factory performance to my brakes for no more than $3000, that I'd just do it. I really love this truck, and you guys have always proven to be professional, honest, and truly caring in the ways you offer to help. Just do it all, and tell me when to pick it up."

 

So the parts were ordered and the service has been schedued to begin tomorrow. Prepared to offer any level of service my customer demanded, I invested a lot of time putting together that estimate. The fact that he authorized it all was a pleasant surprise, of course.

 

The real point I'm trying to make, though, is that I logged his service in our system as brake work and fuel system repairs, accordingly. There were no "maintenance" items on the estimate. If fact, I chided him by saying, you know, for a few extra dollars, we can do a cooling system flush to prepare you for winter, if you like.

 

"How much?", he asked. I told him it would be about $89, and what it would entail/include.

 

"Nah, I'll pass.", he said.

 

I guess I'm not good at selling maintenance services yet.

 

[skm]

I have an expedition now that I have to replace all the lines on it.. I need to figure an estimate for him.. I usually only see one line at a time except on the older gm's with the abs unit down low in the left front or the expeditions. I usually send them out since it is so time consuming. This happens to be one of my good customers so I agreed to do it . I just need to figure out what would be fare to them as well as myself. Usually doing one line I charge and hour and a half plus parts, but as this post has grown I think I am pretty low on brake line repairs.